Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

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Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

If you so the installation you would be responsible for making sure it meets the NEC requirements. How would you know this unless you test it? :confused:
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Petey, so you're saying you won't invest in tools to perform your work. Who do you borrow from when you need to check voltage or resistance? :roll:

We have two Ground rod (fall of potential) testers.

If you get involved in jobs requiring performance grounding, you will have to be able to provide these results regardless of code issues.

Roger

[ December 11, 2004, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Who do you borrow from when you need to check voltage or resistance? [Roll Eyes]
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Roger, no ofense but that is a bull$hit statement which I take ofense to.

Let me ask you, who is "We"?
I am a one man shop with a ton of tools and testers. Unfortunately a ground rod tester is not one of them. I still cannot yet affort many things I might like to have. I know most members of this forum are either inspectors or part of large firms with huge $$$ volume. Sorry, this is not me.
I promise, the second an inspector requests a resistance check I will go out and buy one. OK?
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Originally posted by speedypetey:
no way in hell I am going to invest in a several hundred dollar tester to do someone else's test.
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Many people feel that way, you do not have to buy the meter. :)

You drive two rods at least 6' apart and move on. :D

The company I work for has a few of the meters, most times I do not have one of them with me. I drive two rods and call for inspection. ;)
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Petey, sorry to have hit a nerve, but let's go back and look at something,
Who does the testing at who's cost?
I am not asking for an exemption but no way in hell I am going to invest in a several hundred dollar tester to do someone else's test. If it is written that it is my burden to make this test, so be it.
If an inspector want to test the electrode and prove another electrode is required, so be that as well.
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doesn't this imply that testing is others task in your opinion?

I agree with Iwire and do the same thing, we drive two rods and leave, to take the time to perform the testing cost more than driving two rods.

The NEC requires this criteria (25 ohms) or drive two rods, that is the code and by your own admission you say you are not complying.

Roger
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Petey, FWIW, I actually agree that the 25 ohm 2 ground rod requirement is useless.

Roger
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Thank you, and I'm sorry if I added too much tension.
One thing I really like about this forum is that it is usually kept very civil and professional. Unlike many others.

Take care.
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

As you can see from my earlier post, I am not especially sure what a second ground rod will really do in most instances. Aside from that, the code requires this to be installed in a fashion that meets code.

As far as testing, that is a rare occurrance, therefore you will see two rods installed. I recently had a seminar for Dutchess County inspectors. They in general were not requiring two rods, I think you will see that change in 2005. If you are in that area just beware of the change to come.

Everyone has their toys, boats, cars, trucks, fishing equipment, etc... :) My toys are electrical testers... of which one is a groundrod tester - it comes in handy and most ECs are quite surprised when I pull it out of the car during an inspection :D

Pierre
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Petey, I also apologize, my first post wasn't very diplomatic.

Roger
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

My own home is not grounded to the water pipe. I would love for it to be but there's not much point. There is black plastic coming from the utility to the meter pit, also from the pit to the basement wall. 1 brass fitting then cpvc to everywhere else.
Is there any point to attaching a ground here.
the panel(200amp) is grounded via #4 cu to 2 ground rods.
What else is there to do.

OK I'm ready let'er rip :D
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

What I've been doing for a while now is to drive a two to three section ground rod straight down until I hit rock bottom. Locally that is at twenty to twenty five feet. The sections are standard eight foot copper weld rods joined to each other with couplings that are driven onto both rods by the driving of the next section. At least locally i don't get to twenty five ohms but so far the inspectors have excepted the deep driven rod rather than two shallow ones. When they demand two I'll drive two eight footers. With the electric demolition hammer I am using to drive them it will take less time then the single stacked rods and the couplings aren't cheap either.

If anyone has any straight forward method for getting deeper with sectional rods in rocky soil I would love to hear about it.
--
Tom H

[ December 13, 2004, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: hornetd ]
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Originally posted by woofy:
My own home is not grounded to the water pipe. I would love for it to be but there's not much point. There is black plastic coming from the utility to the meter pit, ....................OK I'm ready let'er rip :D
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For what? :D

You do not have a metal underground water pipe that complies with 250.52(A)(1). That being the case you do not have to connect to it. ;)
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

When I got out of high school I worked for a foundation crew and one of the sites we worked on was in an old river bed where set the footings on river rock about the size of bowling balls in every shape you could imagine. I was never there when the electric was brought in.
After reading this thread it got me to wondering what in the world they might have done for a grounding electrode. I don't believe they ever brought in any topsoil, they just back filled with rock.
What would make for a sufficient ground under those circumstances nowdays. The reason I ask is the concrete in the footings very likely only stuck to the rocks on top. It was unbelievable then an I was only just out of school.
It was western Colo in the 70's people were just going nuts then building everywhere.

thanks........Mike
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

iwire

But a bonding connection per 250.104 is required to the interoir metal water piping system even if the undgerground metal water piping is not a 250.52 GE
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Originally posted by tom baker:
iwire

But a bonding connection per 250.104 is required to the interior metal water piping system even if the underground metal water piping is not a 250.52 GE
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Yes of course you are correct, :) I did not bring that up as woofy's house has plastic interior piping as well as a plastic supply.

Originally posted by woofy:
There is black plastic coming from the utility to the meter pit, also from the pit to the basement wall. 1 brass fitting then cpvc to everywhere else.
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Can't bond cpvc very effectively. ;)
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Sorry Iwire I missed that. If Bennie was here he was say to bond with non-metallic wire.
 
Re: Using 2 ground rods as a substitute for a H2O ground

Originally posted by tom baker:
Sorry Iwire I missed that. If Bennie was here he was say to bond with non-metallic wire.
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No need for that, you brought up a very important (IMO) section of code that I left out. I could have mislead people, the way I left it.

I thought of Bennie also, I was thinking Woofy's house would be ideal to Bennie, plastic supply and interior piping system. :cool:

I wonder if Bennie had any idea of the impression he left?


Bob
 
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