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USING DC VOLTAGE ON AC RATED DRY CONTACTS

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ROBOJOE77

Member
Location
troutdale oregon
Occupation
manufacturing plant journeyman
I have a pneumatic valve with a set of normally closed dry contacts for feedback to an I/O device. Contacts are rated for 115VAC. Question: is there an issue with using 24VDC on those contacts instead of the 115VAC?
 

CoolWill

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Usually no. I can't speak to listings and whatnot, but the rule of thumb that I've seen applied and use myself is that up to about 30 VDC, AC switches and contacts can be used at their amp rating without problem.
 

ROBOJOE77

Member
Location
troutdale oregon
Occupation
manufacturing plant journeyman
Yeh, my initial thought is also that there wouldn't be an issue, but then I got to thinking about DC's arcing effects during make and break and started second guessing and worrying about damaging the contacts
 

CoolWill

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Yeh, my initial thought is also that there wouldn't be an issue, but then I got to thinking about DC's arcing effects during make and break and started second guessing and worrying about damaging the contacts
If it's just signal, it will be fine. I'll give you an anecdotal example of using an AC switch on a DC load near the switch rating. I have a 24 volt DC water pump that waters a garden from a rain tank and pulls about 12 amps. I turn it on an off with a 15 amp Decora light switch. It's worked for 10 years. I doubt 24 volt signal current is very high at all.
 

paullmullen

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Electrical Engineer & Master Electrician
In my product design world (medical technology) we used to be very concerned about contacts for signal circuits at very low current. At low voltage, accumulation of even a little oxidation on the contacts can be a big deal. This is why gold contacts are so common on very low current connections. I'd be careful to look at the switch for minimum current specs if they exist.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
In my product design world (medical technology) we used to be very concerned about contacts for signal circuits at very low current. At low voltage, accumulation of even a little oxidation on the contacts can be a big deal. This is why gold contacts are so common on very low current connections. I'd be careful to look at the switch for minimum current specs if they exist.
I has similar experience with beater flow meter that had low dc pulsing current. The microswitch built up oxidation. The simple solution was to use a magnetic reed switch
 

ROBOJOE77

Member
Location
troutdale oregon
Occupation
manufacturing plant journeyman
I have seen some threads on automation control forums mentioning oxidation on contacts with low currents as well which also raised some concerns for me.
I'm trying to avoid the task of running new conduit to a room where there is pretty much no space to run new conduit for an AC circuit. All the other devices installed with feedback use a 24 DC or a 4-20 feedback and control so I have plenty of routes to run a 24VDC circuit. A technician who is not electrically savvy purchased and installed these new valves with the dry contacts rated for 120VAC @ .25 A , and it's creating a headache for me. Do you suppose that the .25 A rating is already low enough that the contact are designed for oxidation resistance? The design of the switching device is such that I cannot see the contacts, appears to be a microswitch of sorts.
 

ROBOJOE77

Member
Location
troutdale oregon
Occupation
manufacturing plant journeyman
I don't believe I have the option of using a different switch, it's pretty much integral with the valve as much as it bolts on, unless the company sells a different bolt on that was not mentioned in the catalog
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
You could always use a 120vac relay with contacts rated for the load.

Also, placing more than one set of contacts in series improves the interrupting capacity.
 

ROBOJOE77

Member
Location
troutdale oregon
Occupation
manufacturing plant journeyman
Yeah, the problem is I don't have 120V for controls in the area. It's annoying when people who don't understand the fundamentals buy a device or product and they're like "here, make it work". It's a normally closed switch too on a fail to close valve which means the logic is going to have to be written that off is an opened valve. Not good practice. A double acting switch would be best and at least a normally open switch would be better and rated for the standard voltages and signaling used for the area
 

MD Automation

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Engineer
Depending on the nature of the process and an analysis of the consequences of a failure, I’d probably install it and just keep an eye on it.
Agree w/ this approach.

You have not indicated what this contact is controlling. You mentioned worrying about the make and break arcing that DC contacts are subject to - but that's typically of concern with loads that are inductive. The collapsing magnetic field tends to want to keep current flowing as the circuit opens, and creates the arc as the contacts open.

I suspect your application is at the other end of concern - meaning very little current flow because the contact is wired into some PLC input?

This extremely low current flow issue is called the "wetting current" - the level of current necessary to break down and overcome any surface contact resistance (surface roughness / corrosion).

Years ago we were forced to run a CANBUS network thru a slip ring. We were concerned that the low current flow in a fieldbus like a CAN network would cause issues over the long run. With few options available at the time, we simply went ahead and tried it on the prototype and it worked just fine. And they were all working just fine 15 years later when we scrapped those machines.

You could always engineer in something like a 10K resistor at the PLC input to create additional current draw when the contact is closed. At 24VDC, that would draw 2.4ma, which should be way higher than the wetting current for typical silver oxide contacts. Just a thought.

But...I suspect that most PLC inputs are going to have some sort of internal pull-up or pull-down resistor when the input is floating, so there may be enough current flow anyway to overcome that wetting limit.

Ignore all the above if you are not driving a PLC input with this contact.

I'd simply go ahead and try it like it is. As long as the "consequences" that Retirede referred to are not something like a reactor SCRAM ;)
 

ROBOJOE77

Member
Location
troutdale oregon
Occupation
manufacturing plant journeyman
It is in fact going to be wired to a plc module, Opto 22 (not a fan). I'm on board with just trying it as consequences are not dire and the valve system can be operated manually should it fail. I appreciate everyone's feedback, definitely has given me more of a basis to go off of for this circuit design.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think you are worrying too much. The wetting current going thru the switch to the input module is a few milliamps. It's likely that you will never have a problem with it. I would not even bat an eye at such an install.
 

MD Automation

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Engineer
I think you are worrying too much ... I would not even bat an eye at such an install.

Also agree w/ this.

Especially since you mentioned the Opto 22 module, which I assume uses opto-coupled inputs. These are driving an (infrared) LED and would, I'm guessing, draw easily 10+ ma of current when in the ON state. This is likely far greater than any tiny wetting current for your relay contacts.
 

qcroanoke

Sometimes I don't know if I'm the boxer or the bag
Location
Roanoke, VA.
Occupation
Sorta retired........
Depending on the nature of the process and an analysis of the consequences of a failure, I’d probably install it and just keep an eye on it.
When the finger will get pointed at you or your company in the event of a failure you tend to over analyze. We would not knowingly use AC on DC contacts or vice versa.
 

CoolWill

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
When the finger will get pointed at you or your company in the event of a failure you tend to over analyze. We would not knowingly use AC on DC contacts or vice versa.
Yeah, there's risk getting out of bed in the morning. As professionals with experience, we can calculate a risk based on knowledge of the physical principles involved. Sure the lawyers could eat you alive, but depending on the criticality of the system, we overcome the paralysis of fear. I take it this isn't a life or death system. There's probably much more risk in the high voltage feeding the equipment than in the low voltage DC signal on some AC contacts.
 
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