Using "Neutral Bus" as Equipment Grounding Bus

Status
Not open for further replies.
bjp_ne_elec said:
Have situation where an existing three wire feed used to go to a 240V disco. Commercial customer wants a solution for some 240V outlets. I'm going to drop a single phase 240V panel and was wondering if there is any issue just using the neutral bus as the Equipment Grounding bus.

Only issue I see is that you'd have to use the included green "Bonding Screw". It's typically used just to bond the neutral to the equipment ground. Only concern I would have is someone "assumed" this was a neutral and started feeding 120V circuits off of it.[/quote

If properly installed, there should be no assumtion. The ground would be either GREEN in color or marked Green with phase tape. Yes?
Click to expand...
 
ceb58 said:
That's the question that needs to be answered. Where is this feed coming from? The meter or from another panel?
Click to expand...

The feed is coming from another panel that is located in the main electrical room. It's derived from a 3-phase 400A panel, and originally fed a 240V single phase piece of equipment. Equipment has been moved and I actually found the disco just hanging off a piece of 1" Greenfield. Immediately told the Facilities guy that that has to be taken care of. One of five items I pointed out that were serious saftey issues. One was a 3-phase 480V, 60A disco doing the same thing.

I still don't seem to get a consensus - go figure with code interpretation. I know it's staightforward if I add an independent ground bus - but why waste the $8.00 on a ground bus, if I can legally use what would have been the neutral bus, if this needed to be a 120/240V single phase panel. One issue is that the 150' run from that main 400A panel is that they only ran three conductor cable - so don't have the extra conductor required for a neutral.
 
ivsenroute said:
If it is going to be a sub and there will be NO neutral load and you will be bonding the terminal bar to the enclosure and EGC then I don't see a problem.

Although you don't have to label it as "240 only, no ground", it might not be a bad idea.
Click to expand...

It does have a ground (EGC) - in fact has to have - just won't have a neutral.
 
So it's a cable with 3 hots and a green/bare ground?

Use the "neutral" bus provided and and bond it to the panel.
 
M. D. said:
I would have to disagree here ,..a little,... the neutral bus bar on most ,if not all the panels I've installed lately ,. are labeled as such , they allow grounding conductor connection if there are enough spaces for them...

I think I must have mis read the OP . ...In any event I would spring for the ground bar,.. and isolate the intended bar for the neutral..
Click to expand...

I would also do it this way.
 
I personally don't see a problem with doing the way the OP suggests.

If that 3rd. (grounded) conductor was insulated, I would strip the insulation from it and change it to a grounding conductor, install the bonding screw, and call it done.

If someone makes the mistake of adding 120V circuits to that panel, they shouldn't be doing the work in the first place.
If there's no white (or gray) wire in the panel, there's no way a qualified electrician would do it.

Just my opinion
steve
 
hillbilly said:
I personally don't see a problem with doing the way the OP suggests.

If that 3rd. (grounded) conductor was insulated, I would strip the insulation from it and change it to a grounding conductor, install the bonding screw, and call it done.

If someone makes the mistake of adding 120V circuits to that panel, they shouldn't be doing the work in the first place.
If there's no white (or gray) wire in the panel, there's no way a qualified electrician would do it.

Just my opinion
steve
Click to expand...

Why would you strip the insulation from it.?? Identify the ground with tape or paint per code and call it a day.
 
bjp_ne_elec said:
No it's a two wire with ground.
Click to expand...



BJP
I misread/misunderstood your post the first time I posted, the second time I posted, I understood what you have for the installation.

There is absolutely no code or other reason you cannot use the existing bus with the green screw provided by the manufacturer.

The question about the rating of the circuit breaker is a very good question.
Here are some links that will help one to determine the type of circuit breaker that will be required.

Link1, Link2 (this is a good link), Link3,

Here is the link for Google to many good links for the topic of OCPD
 
No it's a two wire with ground.
Click to expand...

Same answer. If it's hot. hot, bare/green ground, use the "neutral" bus.



And....you can't (legally) just strip the ground or tape it if it's #6 or smaller......right?

Not that that would keep me from doing it, I'm just sayin...........
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
BJP
I misread/misunderstood your post the first time I posted, the second time I posted, I understood what you have for the installation.

There is absolutely no code or other reason you cannot use the existing bus with the green screw provided by the manufacturer.

The question about the rating of the circuit breaker is a very good question.
Here are some links that will help one to determine the type of circuit breaker that will be required.

Link1, Link2 (this is a good link), Link3,

Here is the link for Google to many good links for the topic of OCPD
Click to expand...

I'm missing something on concern for the rating of the circuit breaker. It's already protected by a 2-pole 100A breaker in the main panel that it derives it's feeder from. Am I missing something?
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
The question is refering to whether the breaker is to be a straight rated or slash rated circuit breaker.
Click to expand...

I am lost as well.

Originally the breaker supplied a straight single phase 240 disco, now it supplies a straight single phase 240 panel.

(Edit; I guess what I am saying is that I thought this slash rating issue was more of an issue when using a high leg)
 
Last edited:
bjp_ne_elec said:
I'm missing something on concern for the rating of the circuit breaker. It's already protected by a 2-pole 100A breaker in the main panel that it derives it's feeder from. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

Dave, If you have two ungrounded conductors and a grounding conductor then you can use the neutral bar as long as it is bonded to the panel. The neutral bar will no longer be a neutral bar but an equipment grounding bar. There is nowhere in the code that requires a neutral (grounded conductor) to be present in a panel past the main service. Just label the panel 240 volts Only- No neutral present to ease your mind. I have seen an ec add a 120v circuit from a panel with no neutral. Labelling it will prevent this problem.
 
iwire said:
If someone adds a 120 volt load to a panel that has no neutral I have my doubts a label would stop them either.:smile:
Click to expand...

I agree if someone knew it was 240v and didn't care it would not stop them but many ec may go into the panel and assume (without thinking) that the panel has a neutral. I almost did it once-- ran the wire and was about to hook it up when I realized the panel was a sub panel. I can see a helper or even a mechanic breeze by without thinking about it.
 
To each their own. :smile:

I am not a guy who feels it is up to me to look out for future unqualified persons actions. My feeling is if someone adds a circuit to a panel it is up to them to do it right.:smile:

I stupidly ran a new 40 amp feeder for a HVAC circuit to a mostly empty 225 amp panel. I did not bother to open it up first, when I did open it I found the entire panel was supplied by 10 AWG and a very small transformer. Totally my fault, it did not even cross my mind that that the original installer should have labeled the panel as 30 amps.:smile:
 
iwire said:
To each their own. :smile:

I am not a guy who feels it is up to me to look out for future unqualified persons actions. My feeling is if someone adds a circuit to a panel it is up to them to do it right.:smile:
Click to expand...


If electrical work is being performed, and it is not by a professional who understands that it takes more effort than just doing, such as using one's experience and knowledge, then so be it. The mistake is theirs and the person who hired them.

When we go to work and have to worry about "what ifs", we might as well not go to work.




This thread is also an example of how hard it sometimes is to provide information when we do not really know the conditions of the installation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top