Utility Control Circuit

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mastergasfitter

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I have had several estimates for an installation of a manual main load center transfer panel. Pull out a 150 amp main load center panel and install a Reliance TTV1506C manual main load center Transfer Panel. The problem is a 220 .75 amp load circut, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. This circuit needs to come from utility power to sence power or power failure. All of the electricins that looked at it said that they can put it on the load side lugs and install 2 2amp inline fuses.
Question what is the correct way of suppling a 220v .75 amp load circut, that feeds the generator Utility Controller circuit.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

You can coonect this circuit ahead of the main and comply with 230.82, but how to do it is another matter. I agree that fuse protection is going to be required to comply with tap rules. You will have to come up with some sort of supplemental lug arrangement to connect to the load side of the meter or to the line lugs in the panel. You won't be able to simply slip the wire under the lugs and comply with the NEC. Also, the PoCo will have to OK the installation in most jurisdictions to make sure you don't backfeed the incoming service.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

how to do it correctly. can the load side lugs in the can be changed to a double lug? Can you use Tap connectors in a meter can or in a main panel.
Can you use bugs? and then there is the placement of the protection and the type of protection
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Any number of connectors can be used to tap conductors.

I have to ask why the generator needs to know if the utility power is on or off considering this is a manual transfer switch.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Utility power charges the battery and allows for weekly exercise turns on the generator during a power failure gives with a 20 sec. warm up and turns off the generator when powered is restored with a 1 minute cool down. I did talk to the factory and they said I can connect to any transfer switch as long as I do not alter the generator. now they said that it is up to me to figure out how to get the 220 volt .75 amp load circuit, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. I have very few power failures mostly during hurricanes and then I don't want it even start. Turning it off is on my hurricane
check list
Now I can put a #14AWG in the same lugs as the 1/0 but that's not legal.
any suggestions on how to get the 220 volt .75 amp load circuit, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. send a private e-mail to me if you dont want to post it her. I am a master gas fitter and I am using a licensed electrician to do the work the 4 that had give me estimates use words like "I think i can make it work" "well its not code but we can do it this way"
thats not what i want to hear. one sparky said he can slip 2 1/0 under the load side it the meter can. I don't think so. please any suggestions

[ January 14, 2006, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: mastergasfitter ]
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

I looked at the product that you are proposing to use on Reliance Controls web site. Are you absolutely sure you need an external circuit to sense utility loss ? Seems to me that this would all be done internal to the panel. And as far as starting the generator, that's just a dry contact closure. Do you have a copy of the schematic you can fax to me ? There isn't much literature available on the web. PM me with an email address.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

I am still lost and I work on and install generators quite often.

Why is this circuit necessary for a MANUAL transfer switch?

Pull out a 150 amp main load center panel and install a Reliance TTV1506C manual main load center Transfer Panel
Click to expand...
The battery charging should be supplied by a standard branch circuit from the panel.

It seems you are trying to reinvent the wheel as you are not an electrician and not experienced with generator installations.

[ January 14, 2006, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Here is a link to the product.

Transfer switch

What part of this needs a control circuit?

Or what is the generators need for a control circuit.

Any generator I have installed if automatically controlled is controlled by an AUTOMATIC transfer switch.

Do you want the generator to run during a power failure for no reason if you are not there to flip the transfer switch?

Seems odd at best.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Utility power charges the battery and allows for weekly exercise turns on the generator during a power failure with a 20 sec. warm up and turns off the generator when powered is restored with a 1 minute cool down. I did talk to the factory and they said I can connect to any transfer switch as long as I do not alter the generator. now they said that it is up to me to figure out how to get 220 volt to the 220volt .75 amp load circuit, that feeds the generator Utility Control circuit. I have very few power failures mostly during hurricanes and then I don't want the generator even start. Turning it off is on my hurricane
check list

Now I can put a #14awg with 2 amp fuse at the end in the same lugs as the 1/0 put that's not legal

I have worked on and installed several generators mostly onan 75hp and up.
-
http://www.aplussupply.com/nsipolaris/bug-bite.htm
bug-bites can i use this in the panel
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

I also don't understand the need, but you could always add a 15/2 breaker to the panel.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Utility power charges the battery and allows for weekly exercise turns on the generator during a power failure with a 20 sec. warm up and turns off the generator when powered is restored with a 1 minute cool down.
Click to expand...
All of the, with the exception of the battery charger circuit, is normally a function of the transfer switch, not of the generator controls.
Don
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

That's why I'm totally confused by this entire topic. I've never seen a generator, transfer switch, etc. that required an external circuit, other than the battery charger, jacket water heater, etc. I read the literature that was available for this product (albeit, not much is available) and don't see this requirement mentioned anywhere.

IMHO, it might be a case of misreading or misunderstanding a schematic.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

I stand corrected.
Utility power connects to the separately derived 220v/24v step down transformer. 24v connects to the control board # 7 191652GS. The CONTROL BOARD powers the HOUR METER #6 77604GS and the RECTIFIER, Battery Charger #4 65795GS The HOUR METER keep track of time running and also performs the weekly exercise.The CONTROL BOARD also turns on the generator and turns off the generator. in the auto mode.
http://www.homegeneratorsystems.com/pdf/owners_manuals/1815_0partslist9w.pdf
A transfer switch would allow time for warm up and cool down.
I would like to be able to know when utility power is restored. this could be a problem since our last power outage was after Wilma 4 days and was restored at 2:35 Am I was thinking of just putting in a buzzer on the Service entrance conductors but I am not sure on how to do that safely using a splice connector and then fusing the conductor before the load. I can give you my cell phone # or my e-mail. Also I will be repairing this unit in the event it ever malfunctions. I dont think the servicing agent would ever show up since I did not buy this unit from him
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

24v connects to the control board # 7 191652GS. The CONTROL BOARD powers the HOUR METER #6 77604GS and the RECTIFIER, Battery Charger #4 65795GS The HOUR METER keep track of time running and also performs the weekly exercise.The CONTROL BOARD also turns on the generator and turns off the generator. in the auto mode.
Click to expand...
It looks like the hour meter is directly powered by the generator 12 VDC system. It also looks like the exercise feature is manual only based on the drawing. I don't know why they are using the transformer to start the generator on loss of utility power, that is normally a dry contact from the transfer switch. The drawing doesn't show any internal circuits, so you really can't tell what the 24 VAC does. I see that the 240 can also be used for optional engine and battery warmers.
Don
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Don these generator operate have the same auto startup like the ones used with a ATS.
When the utility goes off line there is a electronic timer that times out and fires up the generator, This is a warm-up cycle, In a ATS type generator, there would be a second timer that would time out 1 min. then transfer to generator, When power is restored the second timer is again set to time out 1 min. then transfer back to utility then the first timer would keep the generator running one more min. then shut down the generator. But in the manual version only the auto startup and shut down timers are used. Generic and Dayton all use this same set up. Pro ably more.

I would say contact Reliance and see if they have an optional lugs for the utility side of the transfer switch. I have used the generic version but I use a regular manual TS that had auxiliary connection lugs for the N1, N2 connection.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Originally posted by hurk27:
Don these generator operate have the same auto startup like the ones used with a ATS.
When the utility goes off line there is a electronic timer that times out and fires up the generator,
Click to expand...
Why would you want this in combination with a manual transfer switch?

You not home, the power goes out, the generator fires up and runs for nothing.

Seems like a poor design IMO.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Wayne,
If you have a transfer switch, why would you want those controls in the generator? And even if you want them there, why would you use a transformer for the loss of utility detection system. Just put a relay on the battery charger power circuit. When the relay drops out, the start sequence begns. I guess I am trying to make this system work like a real standy by generator system and not like the mini system that it is. The smallest one that I have ever worked on was 75 kW.
But as Bob says, what good are any of these controls on a system that has a manual transfer switch?
Don
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

I am a gasfitter none of the electrians that I work with daily understand this system either but I do! I repair this type of systems all the time.I also repair comercial and industral cooking equipment. Now back to my original question.
what is the correct way of suppling a 220vac .75 amp load circut, that feeds the generator Utility Controller circuit.
 
Re: Utility Control Circuit

Originally posted by mastergasfitter:
I am a gasfitter none of the electricians that I work with daily understand this system either but I do!
Click to expand...
Well of course we don't understand we are just electricians. :D

But even if we understood this we can not give advice to DIYs. :p
 
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