Utility disconnect not service disconnect

Status
Not open for further replies.
hhsting said:
I'll let the engineer know and to coordinate and have utility worst case fault current at the utility disconnect and to provide in writing. I will also have in writing service point. His arguement I suspect would be AHJ has no control of utility disconnect however if its downstream of service point then AHJ has control over it. Just cant find it in code section???
Click to expand...

See article 100 definition of service point, and also see 90.2(A)(1) and (B)(5)
 
electrofelon said:
See article 100 definition of service point, and also see 90.2(A)(1) and (B)(5)
Click to expand...
His second arguement I suspect would be utility disconnect is to be owned and operated by the utility not by customer why should AHJ care? 90.2(B)(5)(b) says property owned for distribution of energy i.e. utility disconnect.
 
Last edited:
hhsting said:
His second arguement I suspect would be utility disconnect is to be owned and operated by the utility not by customer why should AHJ care? 90.2(B)(5)(b) says
property owned for distribution of energy [/color] i.e. utility disconnect.
Click to expand...

You are not reading that section carefully. (B)(5)(b) is talking about real estate type property. I guarantee the POCO doesn't own the property where that meter disconnect is.
Click to expand...
 
electrofelon said:
hhsting said:
His second arguement I suspect would be utility disconnect is to be owned and operated by the utility not by customer why should AHJ care? 90.2(B)(5)(b) says

You are not reading that section carefully. (B)(5)(b) is talking about real estate type property. I guarantee the POCO doesn't own the property where that meter disconnect is.
Click to expand...
real estate property is not owned by POCO but disconnect equipment is porperty of POCO owned and operated by POCO. That section also talks about metering but thats not real estate either but property of POCO. Engineer would argue that utility disconnect is property of POCO owned by POCO. 90.5(B)(5) does not say real estate property specifically it just says property.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
here is the section:

(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:
(1) Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings,
railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles
other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles
Informational Note: Although the scope of this Code indicates
that the Code does not cover installations in ships,
portions of this Code are incorporated by reference into
Title 46, Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 110–113.
(2) Installations underground in mines and self-propelled
mobile surface mining machinery and its attendant
electrical trailing cable
(3) Installations of railways for generation, transformation,
transmission, or distribution of power used exclusively
for operation of rolling stock or installations used exclusively
for signaling and communications purposes
(4) Installations of communications equipment under the
exclusive control of communications utilities located
outdoors or in building spaces used exclusively for
such installations
(5) Installations under the exclusive control of an electric
utility where such installations
a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated
metering, or
b. Are on property owned or leased by the electric
utility for the purpose of communications, metering,
generation, control, transformation, transmission, or
distribution of electric energy, or......
Click to expand...

Take out 5(a) and read right through 5 to 5(B). Seems pretty clear to me they are NOT referring to, say, a cabinet that is owned by the utility. Even if they were, did the utility supply the NF disco? Usually not, so how is it suddenly their property?)

But back up and look at the part of (5) I colored red. Is it really under the utility's "exclusive control"? Did you supply the equipment, install the equipment, and are you responsible (at least partly) for the equipment? The answer is almost always yes. Say a termination fails inside a meter socket or the meter disconnect, do you think the utility will come and fix it?
 
electrofelon said:
here is the section:



Take out 5(a) and read right through 5 to 5(B). Seems pretty clear to me they are NOT referring to, say, a cabinet that is owned by the utility. Even if they were, did the utility supply the NF disco? Usually not, so how is it suddenly their property?)

But back up and look at the part of (5) I colored red. Is it really under the utility's "exclusive control"? Did you supply the equipment, install the equipment, and are you responsible (at least partly) for the equipment? The answer is almost always yes. Say a termination fails inside a meter socket or the meter disconnect, do you think the utility will come and fix it?
Click to expand...
It says nothing about ownership, it says "under the exclusive control of..". Does not matter who actually purchased the item, but rather who has control of it.

Pretty common for POCO's in many places to specify how you will install service conductors, meters, raceways, point of attachment, etc. and make customer and/or customer's contractor install most if not all of it and they only make final connections and plug a meter in. They still consider up to the meter or even up to the service disconnecting means to be on supply side of the "service point" because to do any maintenance here typically means getting POCO involved in some way or another. Most POCO around here that have such specifications on services usually have specs that are also code compliant, and even have some things that exceed code requirements. Underground service raceways that NEC says can be 18" deep - POCO's here often want 36".
 
kwired said:
It says nothing about ownership, it says "under the exclusive control of..". Does not matter who actually purchased the item, but rather who has control of it.

Pretty common for POCO's in many places to specify how you will install service conductors, meters, raceways, point of attachment, etc. and make customer and/or customer's contractor install most if not all of it and they only make final connections and plug a meter in. They still consider up to the meter or even up to the service disconnecting means to be on supply side of the "service point" because to do any maintenance here typically means getting POCO involved in some way or another. Most POCO around here that have such specifications on services usually have specs that are also code compliant, and even have some things that exceed code requirements. Underground service raceways that NEC says can be 18" deep - POCO's here often want 36".
Click to expand...
Yes well the non fuse utility disconnect after contractor install it would be under control of POCO. POCO is going to have their locks at the utility disconnect.
 
kwired said:
It says nothing about ownership, it says "under the exclusive control of..". Does not matter who actually purchased the item, but rather who has control of it.
Click to expand...

Yes but I was referring to the language in 90.2(B)(5)(b) where it says "property" OP was claiming that property could be equipment.

Around here one of the POCO's provides the CT cabinet. That makes it their property, but we still make the line and load terminations, and I assume are responsible for the line and load conductors and terminations, thus it is not under their " exclusive control". Another POCO doesnt supply the CT cabinet, and they give me the CT's and make me install them. They do wire the secondary of the CT's to their meter however.
 
hhsting said:
Yes well the non fuse utility disconnect after contractor install it would be under control of POCO. POCO is going to have their locks at the utility disconnect.
Click to expand...

The last one I did, the POCO did not lock it. Even if they did, Ill bet you 10 bucks if a termination fails in there, or some other part of it has an issue, they will not fix it. IMO that is not "exclusive control"
 
Thinking about this some more, I guess my stance is not necessarily that you can't have an "island" on the customer side of the service point where the NEC doesn't apply. I don't really see that wording that says 'NEC applies at all points past the service point', but I see it has being very unlikely. IMO it would only happen if POCO provides, installs, and maintains such equipment and it is for their purposes only.
 
electrofelon said:
Thinking about this some more, I guess my stance is not necessarily that you can't have an "island" on the customer side of the service point where the NEC doesn't apply. I don't really see that wording that says 'NEC applies at all points past the service point', but I see it has being very unlikely. IMO it would only happen if POCO provides, installs, and maintains such equipment and it is for their purposes only.
Click to expand...

"Service point" is a fairly new definition to help clarify some of what has been brought up here.

Utility can still require you install certain items according to their specifications even though they are on the customer side of the service point, or refuse to provide service if you don't comply with their specs. One common example is on overhead conductor supplied services. Point of attachment or somewhere near that point is often the service point, yet they often specify raceway size type, conductors, acceptable meter socket enclosures, some even want a ground rod tied into the meter even if you have other grounding electrodes tied to the service disconnect.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top