Value Engineering - long post

[Minuteman]

I posted this thread last year, about a church self contracting a new building.

The "Construction Manager" hired me to install power for his job shack. A few months later he gave me a set of prints for the building. We poured over the prints and sent a (large) bid. Heard nothing.

In July he called me to install temp power. He then gave me a new set of prints and said that they re-sized the job from about 60,000 sq ft. to 40,000 (with contingency for the future). The Mechanical/Electrical prints were done by a different PE than the first prints, and very odd.

The service is still a 208Y, 3000-amp disco with 2000-amp MDP. Why?

1. It's about 200' from the disco to the MDP.
2. All the A/C equipment is 3 phase.
3. The lights are 120v
4. There are 5 sub panels located throughout the building.

Seems to me, they would save a ton of money upfront and on their electric bills if they had 480/277v. I met the POCO rep and they are setting a new transformer and it make no difference to them what the secondary is, yet.

A few other issues:

• There are identical 4, 3, and 2 lamp fixtures, and several with Emergency ballast. Most rooms are mixed. One office has a 3 lamp and a 2 lamp.
• All the Em-ballast fixtures are located within 6-8' of a regular Em fixture.
• There is 3" PVC under the slab going from the sound booth. Several 3" go up 4" walls, including 2 that are walls with sink plumbing for the main restrooms.
• All restrooms are loaded with 20-amp dedicated GFCI's.
• All the incandescent can fixtures are in high, hard ceilings.

Okay, so we sent a new bid. But I think that the prints could be fixed, and some value engineering could be done. The guy I work for/with knows a ME/EE firm very well and we wired their new office and the EE's new house. Should we put the CM and the ME/EE together before the slab gets poured? The job has not been awarded yet, and I know there are other bids.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Go for it!

Go for it!

Michael,

I have performed a few church installs. 1 of which was at least that size.

Unfortunately, all of the churches were 208Y/120V. I don't know why either.

I do know of at least 1 church here in our town who does have a 480Y/277V system though.

I'd say to go for it. That way, if you're even close, they should talk to you and let you know they want to use your services... just match the numbers!

 

[Minuteman]

Michael,

I have performed a few church installs. 1 of which was at least that size.

Unfortunately, all of the churches were 208Y/120V. I don't know why either.

I do know of at least 1 church here in our town who does have a 480Y/277V system though.

I'd say to go for it. That way, if you're even close, they should talk to you and let you know they want to use your services... just match the numbers!

Thanks Greg, It could be just a waste of our time. They are committee driven and will probably let the bid to the lowest bidder. Period, but at least I will know that we offered them more bang to to buck.

 

[tallguy]

Thanks Greg, It could be just a waste of our time. They are committee driven and will probably let the bid to the lowest bidder. Period, but at least I will know that we offered them more bang to to buck.

This is certainly more of a human relations question than a technical question... I can't speak to the electrical aspects, but I've spent time in a church or two over the years. Sad to say, some are pretty soul-less -- but plenty of others (most?) are filled with God loving people who care deeply about the welfare of their church.

I would set about finding someone (or multiple someones) within the church whom you could contact to explain your thoughts. Do a rough cost/benefits analysis so that they can get a sense of how much juice ($$$) they will save annually and on the initial install.

You might want to point out the environmental benefits of reduced power consumption as well. Church's are getting more and more thoughtful on such matters...

The key point is to assure them that you aren't trying to circumvent the bidding process. You expect that this will save them a lot of money, but that it will require a significant investment from you up front just to bid it out formally and you would like to run the idea by them first in order to be sure that they are even open to the possibilty.

Hopefully I captured the situation properly? Bottom line is to try to communicate with them directly, openly, and forthrightly.

 

[Minuteman]

Okay, the CM says that he would like to talk to our friends (the EE/ME). We have a meeting with them Friday afternoon.

Problem is, the CM said that he is "trough with" the PE that designed the prints. However the EE/ME we know says that fixing the PE's prints is a sticky situation. I guess you PE's, EE's here could explain it better than I.

Bottom line. If they let the work to someone else, so be it. If we could help them (and get the bid) all the better. Without fixing the prints, I don't want the job.

 

[kingpb]

What you may be us against, and will need to tread lightly if you want the work, is that the engineer may be one of the church members that is doing this for no charge. that doesn't mean he is the best designer around, but, it may mean that he is in tight with pastor/minister or who-so-ever is in charge and has say so.

I ran into this in two different instances where, as an engineer (and an outsider), tried to offer some insightful things to the church that they may want to consider. But because of the personal ties with the person already involved in the design and in the other case CM, they really weren't interested in listening. In both instances, they said essentially, thanks, but no thanks. Chruch work is ver political.

Funny though, about a year after the new sanctuary was built, they were not happy with the lighting (uneven distribution), and announced they were going to be spending some money on modifications. Ironically, that was one of the areas that I tried to get them to make some changes on.

 

[Minuteman]

Nope, the Engineer is not a church member.

Showed the prints to EE Dave, and he quickly pointed out a problem with the service entrance conductor size. Seems the PE failed to derate the parallel 500's. Another conduit and set of 500's will be required.

There are more issues.