Venting: Plan Checkers: Engineering Stamp Required to Switch a Breaker

B

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
For insurance reasons I pulled a permit on behalf of a local electrician, to replace a circuit breaker.
Never mind why, that's the entire scope of work: replace breakers.

I was not able to pull an express permit, it had to come with plans
.
What's on the plans? Just about nothing other than site plan with dimensions,
showing the location of the main panel.

I asked for less than 2 week turn on that permit drawings, and got back that they needed to be engineer stamped for multi-family as a "new requirement".
 
Sounds like California. What does the code say, is this really a new requirement?
 
infinity said:
Sounds like California. What does the code say, is this really a new requirement?
Click to expand...
It's not really new, just the first time anyone bothered to enforce it here.

--------------------------
California Business and Professions Code (BPC) § 5537 covers the topic and has for a long time.

Multiple dwellings containing no more than four dwelling units of woodframe construction not more than two stories and basement in height. However, this paragraph shall not be construed as allowing an unlicensed person to design multiple clusters of up to four dwelling units each to form apartment or condominium complexes where the total exceeds four units on any lawfully divided lot.

--------------------------
The permit in question is not to "design" the building but to "maintain it", and I don't see that they need to apply this clause.

In California as well architects own the copyright to plans they produce. That's fine, but also a pain
when you drop into an existing project. Locally we're allowed to make an appointment to see old plans in person,
but no cell phone photos or copying is allowed without the original architect's permission. Even if they're dead.
 
Here in Oregon just about any work involving a hazardous location is not a OTC permit, so plans are submitted for silly little things like that in gas & oil work, And in this state drawing electrical plans is considered 'the practice of engineering' or at least architecture.
I am not sure all electrical plans are stamped per se as many are digital, but they have the firms contact info.
There is a fine for practicing engineering without a license. There is but one exception that is for a Supervising Electrician employed by a licensed electrical contractor may plan, design and layout work for the EC that employs them.
Before OTC permits supervising electricians were required to 'sign' the electrical plans and permits, so to this day they are called a 'signing supervisor'.
 
brycenesbitt said:
The permit in question is not to "design" the building but to "maintain it", and I don't see that they need to apply this clause.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you're dealing with idiots. And they wonder why people don't pull permits.
 
infinity said:
Sounds like you're dealing with idiots. And they wonder why people don't pull permits.
Click to expand...
Let me share the single line diagram for the breaker replacement project.
Blue color represents changed elements in the single line diagram:
Capture.JPG
Yes, I filed a single line diagram for a breaker replacement project. And a site plan. And, nothing else because that's all there was.
 
I would be inclined to do a quick check of fault current / series ratings if the main breakers are under 22kAIC.
 
tortuga said:
I would be inclined to do a quick check of fault current / series ratings if the main breakers are under 22kAIC.
Click to expand...

If 110.24(B) comes up, then the project won't work, and the old breaker will have to stay.
The equipment is from the 1970's and there's no published data on AIC for the components.
All I can say is the new breakers (10k) equal of exceed the AIC rating of the old ones (either 10k or 5k it's hard to tell).

If the AHJ wants to get in burdensome requirements on retrofits, fine. They get no retrofits.
They're solving a problem that does not appear to be an actual problem. Even if these breakers exploded on a bolted fault, even if, they're outside in a metal box with a metal cover.

That said I'll get a PE to calculate AIC from the pole. Our utility no longer provides fault current letters, but with binoculars I can probably determine the rating on the pole mounted transformer.



CEC 110.24(B) Modifications
When modifications to the electrical installation occur that affect the available fault current at the service, the available fault current shall be verified or recalculated as necessary to ensure the service equipment ratings are sufficient for the available fault current at the line terminals of the equipment. The required field marking(s) in 110.24(A) shall be adjusted to reflect the new level of available fault current.
 

However, this section does not prohibit a licensed contractor from performing any of the services permitted by Chapter 9 (commencing with Section 7000) of Division 3 within the classification for which the license is issued. Those services may include the preparation of shop and field drawings for work which he or she has contracted or offered to perform, and designing systems and facilities which are necessary to the completion of contracting services which he or she has contracted or offered to perform.
Click to expand...

Are you submitting this permit on behalf of a licensed contractor with the appropriate classification?
 
Update from the OP:
With the engineer stamp the AHJ conditionally approved the permit
(conditioned on an extra $900 in fees, because they noticed the contractor's business license had just expired :-( ).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top