WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

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CaseyM

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I just failed the calc section of my Washington administration test for the third time today. I've been studying the calculation prep book Mike Holt has been good enough to provide for us for several months. When I went into todays test I was calm and collected and confident in my abilities. My multi fam calcs are solid and I was sure of my motor skills and undaunted by the two commercial tenant question. My calculations went smooth, I triple checked all of my answers to be sure, and every time I hit the equal button the final time my numbers matched an exam answer; at least close enough that it would be accounted for by a decimal here and there.
I knew I had passed with a hundred percent and had hardly raised a drop of sweat. I only got three out of the seven.
I just don't get it. I can do these things in the prep book to a T, I've asked other administrators to proof my techniques, I read and re-read the pertinent sections on motors and welders and understand lighting in commercial buildings and I just don't get it. How can I be failing this test still.
Obviously to answer that you'd have to stand over my shoulder and watch me, but more to the point, is this really necessary?
After approving our unique circumstances two years ago L&I is now citing our administrator, a weekend Weyerhaeuser employee, for violating the standard of availability (he doesn't work for the mill during the week and is on call and available to us 24/7) and is threatening to shut our small 4 man shop down. We wire houses, do some millwrighting, do house calls and do some very little commercial work in our small town. We are an essential service to our small community and the state wants to shut us down for doing exactly what they gave us permission to do, employ a knowledgeable administrator who works for Weyerhaeuser on the weekends.
So I'm working to become the new administrator. I understand the test must be difficult to keep out the riff raff but I'm no dummy, we don't take on what we can't handle and if there's any doubt at all we upgrade the wire, it's not that expensive. If I can come within a hundred watts of the answer on this test then what does it matter if I use the next larger conductor in the real world?
I'm not saying the test should be a no brainer but does it need to be this difficult? And I'm not the only one complaining here. Allot of you have had difficulties as well, and besides when the going gets tuff out there, there are always outsiders and electrical engineers to consult. And one final thing, if someone gives us a two tennent commercial building I damn well won't calc it out in fifteen minutes and stake my company on it, and that how much time we have on the test.
So is this test, or the state for that matter, fair in asking this of us? Am I out of line for complaining this much? Or is there a legitimate concern here? Not to mention I have to drive two hours each way to test and shell out fifty bucks each time.

Casey
 
Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

I completely understand you gripe and feel all your points are legitimate. Let me explain to you how exams are written and develpoed, perhaps you already know. Exam providers employ the talents of a psychometrician or even have a psychometrical department. These people test how people behave and react to variables during tests, especially mathematical tests.

I have heard of a procedure where they have a few hundred persons answer a very simple 10 question test using a calculator to obtain the answers. Then they plot the results to see if any common mistakes are made that result in the same wrong answer. If the percentage is high enough, they will incorporate that type of process into the exams. In short, exam providers know the common mistakes and the statistical advantage is with them. Is this to intentionally make you fail? Is this unfair? I don't know.

My advice would be to change up your prpearation processs. Sometimes changing the way you prepare and take the exam, will change the results of your efforts. I find that people get into a habit or rhythm while studying and taking exams. This would seem beneficial and efficient, however studies have shown that altering your methods and changing things up help to make you more attentive and apt to store and recall more information.

So, don't get into the habit of studying at the same time everyday in the exact same way everytime. The same goes for the test. Approach it different and and consider the questions different. You are not answering what you would do or what you think is best to do. You need to answer the question that best fits the way they want you to do it and by playing their game, you can take back some of the advantage.
 
Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

Casey
Bryan's information and suggestions are outstanding. Like Bryan I have been teaching for several years and have seen this problem time and again.
You are absolutely correct in saying that you would not stake your company's rep on a 15 minute calculation.
What you need to do is try and get some help in the form of a class to prep you for this test.
BTW - if you read some of the threads on calculations here, you may be amazed at how often there are multiple answers to the same question. In the field most calculations are not performed by the electrician.
Good Luck!!!
 
Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

Casey the adminstrator must be the full time supervisory employee of the firm. L&I is not picking on you, they are enforcing the laws and rules.
I have seen complaints on the admin exam before and discussed it with an employee of L&I. The questions they use are correct and there is a common mistake made in the answers.
The Mike Holt Exam prep material is the best to use, by the way. June 30th the new wac rules will require you to wait three months if you fail 3 times.
Taking the test now is far easier with laser grade, you can take it 6 days a week at 17 locations. When I took mine it was 4 times a year at few locations and you didn't know if you passed for a month.
 
Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

Tom is right. The problem is not the test but the rules. The state has decided that it is best to run the small EC out of business. Thats what this is about. if you want to be a small business in your state (in EC anyway) you just have to live with the onerous rules.
 
Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

I appreciate your comments, and now that I know about the June 30th deadline to pass in a timely manner I'll have to really ratchet up my efforts. I like the suggestion about studying in
different ways to get out of bad habits, that's a good one. I have indeed noticed the broad range of answers people are presenting in this forum when it comes to the Washington calcs and nobody seems to agree (that I've noticed) who is right, or who is the most right.
There are too many contradictions between my prep material and the code for me to get a solid hold at this point, at least I'm unable to reconcile what I feel are contradictions. One example is that my calc prep book from Mike Holt tells me to ignore nameplate flc and stick with table hp but 430.6 (1) exception 3 in the 02 nec tells me to use the nameplate flc when the flc and hp is listed, this accounts for a significant discrepancy on six motors all with both flc and hp listed. Any thoughts?

Thank you Pierre for confirming my thought that many calculations are done by electrical engineers, at least they were in Denver where I got started. But in defense of the Washington system, we live in the sticks out here and people
can't afford to hire engineers, or otherwise don't. Electricians are the end all be all out here.

I appreciate my advantage over your process Tom, and I understand the test was harder back when you took it too, but I do feel that L&I is picking on us, as Bob says, I do feel the state is trying to run the small businesses out of town. This is reflected in the bond hike several years ago that shut most of the carpenters. Now they want fewer, larger, more solvent companies with more diversity of experience. At least this is my theory. This may be good in Seattle where you don't what Jo Blow wiring a 25 story condo but this is rural Timbuktu here. Most of the service work we do is an effort to repair ducktape
and tie wire jobs. I've seen zip cord carrying twenty amps spliced half a dozen times behind the plaster and I've seen knob and tube lighting circuits mainlined. I'm not saying I don't
deal with 3phase motor loads, I do, but most of the time I'm doing service changes and service calls and doing my best to keep up with the duct tape.

But this is diversion. The test won't change in my case and I have to pass it before L&I shuts us down and leaves the town without sparkies. So I'm thankful for all of your advice and would appreciate anything more you all have to offer. As I said, I *have* to pass this test.

Casey
 
Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

Originally posted by petersonra:
Tom is right. The problem is not the test but the rules. The state has decided that it is best to run the small EC out of business. Thats what this is about. if you want to be a small business in your state (in EC anyway) you just have to live with the onerous rules.
Our electrical department can only enforce the laws and the rules. My suggestion is to get the laws and the rules changed, it can be done. There is no intent of washingtn state to close small businesses. The adminstrator requirement has been in place for long time.
In fact, with class b permits and provisional permits, the elecrical dept has made it very easy to comply with permitting and inspections.
 
Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

Casey-

I'm in WA, and I passed the the first two sections the first time, and the demand load calculations on the third try. On our exam, you will not be getting any answers that are off by a percent, or so. The answers will be what they are--if you work the problem correctly. I was pitching a fit about the exam, and found out I was the problem. You beat the test by reading what the writer wrote. "Trust me!!" I stayed up late one night (until 1 or 2am studying some questions a few guys posted on this site, and the questions clicked--then the answers followed. I said the same thing you did: "I know this stuff--and I did"! But, what I didn't know, was how to beat the writer at their game, and that was being able to read what was written. One simple mistake, will ruin you. Read the questions, and find the loop hole. Try and answer the questions posted on this site first. If you can't get the answers, then you are not ready. "Trust me!"

The test is not in flaw. I thought it was, but it's not! I'm not saying this because I passed, I'm saying this, "because it's the truth!!" know the Range calculations. Also, make sure you no the difference between: Standard and optional calculations. Do not count on thinking you know, but count on knowing you do not know--until you get some questions answered correctly outside of the books you've been using. Hint: The test answers will not be off by any amount. 2+2 is 4, it want be 2+2 is 3.98. I've heard many say, "choose the answer that's close to what you got." Wrong!!! (Note: This my experience with my test, in our State) Learn this stuff, and you will not have to choose. I got the correct answer for all my questions, and none of them where off by a percent. Yet, i did get the "so called" right answer on one of them. This is where Tom Baker is correct: There will be answer's that you think are right, because they are common mistakes made by test takers. This has a lot to do with reading the question, and learning the material. I'll be honest. I bought three books, and not one of them help me to pass WA State exam. Yet, they did help me with learning the basics. What help me was Charlie B and Dillions input on calculations I knew I knew, but didn't know, because I was missing some vital points in reading what the code wrote. Which= Common mistakes.

Side note: I'm happy WA is starting to crack down, because we have to many EC that have no idea about the electrical trade, but get their card--by just paying their fees, and passing the test. Anyone can take the test in our State (No Qualifications). This is killing the trade. I hear it all the time: "I'll just go take my Admins, hire a journeyman, and collect my electrical hours under him or her. Not working one day in the field. :(

[ June 08, 2005, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: resistance ]
 
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Re: WA State Admin Calculations REASONABLE?

Thank you for your input resistance. I have been wound so tight about taking this test and having to become the administrater in a forced move durring a very busy time in my life, that my fuse has been shorter than I'd like it to be. My apologies to everybody else for going off on a tyrade, especially to the testing board if they are indeed as fair as you say they are.
The simple truth is that I'm probably missing a multiplier her or line there as you suggest. I put together a test of seven questions approximating the test and I've answered them as best I can, showing all my work and identifying all of the code sections I referenced. I'll try to post the questions on a new post, letting would be test takers see what they have to come up against, and letting the rest of you play with the numbers for yourselves if you're so inclined.
I'll try to set up that post right away and I'd appreciate any coments you might have. Again, I'm sorry about raising cain on this matter.

Casey
 
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