Wafer lights

[nizak]

Is anyone familiar with a brand of LED wafer light who’s install instructions do not require the junction box to be fastened in place.

I know there are mounting plates that accomplish this but find them most times a nuisance .

I’ve seen a brand that doesn’t require the j box to be secured in remodel applications.

Am looking at new construction use.

Thanks

 

[Eddie702]

I have only used them in renovations. I mount the box if I am able to but that does not always work out.

I am not sure if this is an issue or not. Its the same fixture weather it is new construction or renovation so I haven't seen anything in the code or a listing requiring you to install it one way for new construction and another way for renovation.

 

[Master Nater]

chew some bubble-gum, and stick a piece to the back of the box, before you shove it in the hole. SECURED!

 

[LarryFine]

Won't you be installing them as remodels anyway?

Some you mount the box at rough-in, and connect the LV at trim-out.

A good double-sided tape should suffice if you can fit your arm through the hole.

 

[nizak]

I have only used them in renovations. I mount the box if I am able to but that does not always work out.

I am not sure if this is an issue or not. Its the same fixture weather it is new construction or renovation so I haven't seen anything in the code or a listing requiring you to install it one way for new construction and another way for renovation.

I have seen Mfgr. instructions that state the j box does not need to be secured for remodel.

I have been flagged on it one time for not securing the j box.

I wonder if fastening the j box to a 4” square piece of OSB then using construction adhesive and sticking it next to the hole on the drywall is acceptable?

Sometimes on 24” trusses spacing it’s hard to reach the truss to screw it to.

 

[nizak]

Won't you be installing them as remodels anyway?

Some you mount the box at rough-in, and connect the LV at trim-out.

A good double-sided tape should suffice if you can fit your arm through the hole.

Good suggestion with the tape.

 

[infinity]

For new construction some manufacturers make mounting plates that the box attaches to. I've used the mounting plates from Halo and they work great. As it stands now every boxes needs to be mounted so these types of light definitely need a code update regarding the boxes being left floating.

 

[Master Nater]

Good suggestion with the tape.

and just like that, my bubble-gum idea gets no credit...

i can't help but wonder why the worry about securing the box (which i am not aware of an NEC code for), when there is NO WAY, those junction boxes are large enough to meet the box-fill requirements of the same code. these new flat-panel troffer lights, are even worse...

 

[marmathsen]

Some are designed with the jbox attached to the LED/trim like the Satco S39012 or the Halo CLB4. No need to separately mount the jbox on these.

Rob G
Seattle

 

[infinity]

i can't help but wonder why the worry about securing the box (which i am not aware of an NEC code for), when there is NO WAY, those junction boxes are large enough to meet the box-fill requirements of the same code. these new flat-panel troffer lights, are even worse...

Are you saying that junction boxes in general are not required by the NEC to be secured? What code section requires the box that is integral to a light fixture to be sized according to Article 314?

 

[Master Nater]

i'm saying that the entire wafer light should be condsidered an 'appliance', as it is not "fixed in place." nothing is screwed to the structure, until someone tries to require that the termination box must be secured. to take this just a bit further, that little cord whip with integral disconnect from the luminaire to the termination box could not be terminated in a 'junction box,' as the 'junction box' would be permenantly fixed, and should not be allowed to be used as a replacement for permenant wiring.

as for my remark on the box-fill, i was simply going down the path of this thread, in mistakenly speaking from the point-of-view that it was part of the structure. i do not believe it is. IMO - that junction box IS NOT part of the structure, it is a part of a stand-alone fixture. it is it's own luminaire, and need not be secured to the structure, other than those springs holding it in the drywall. as far as i'm concerned, it's a lamp.

getting back to the spirit of my second remark was, what it DOES need, is a bigger box where the junctions could actually have some space in them. those terminal boxes are tiny. the newer wafers are getting better than the first few that came out, but they are still tiny and do not have very many cubic-inches. (speaking of which, they're not marked for their cubic inches). the terminal boxes on troffer lights, are even worse. there's no way there will ever be 4" of conductor inside of some of those chinesium fixtures.

 

[tortuga]

Wafer lights fall under recessed lighting which would be UL 1598, I am not aware of anything in UL 1598 that would allow a junction box to not be well secured, my guess is any instructions that say otherwise indicate the fixture is not really listed to 1598, which may be possible as there are other standards and fakes out there. Or possibly the instructions were not included with the listing.
My copy of 1598 is a bit old, if you want the most up to date info you can search on ul.com look for 'free access' but my copy contains this section:

Regarding box fill they also have a method for that in the standard.

 

[Wade M]

I've installed a few of these wafer lights in 2x2 ceiling tiles in drop ceilings. There's basically no place to support the j-box even if you were so inclined. The ones I've installed give you maybe 9 cu-in of space for the terminations. The j-box weighs about 12 ounces and feels like it's made of heavy duty aluminum foil. I wire them with 12/2 stranded MC and try to leave the j-box resting on part of the ceiling grid when I close the last tile.

 

[infinity]

I've installed a few of these wafer lights in 2x2 ceiling tiles in drop ceilings. There's basically no place to support the j-box even if you were so inclined. The ones I've installed give you maybe 9 cu-in of space for the terminations. The j-box weighs about 12 ounces and feels like it's made of heavy duty aluminum foil. I wire them with 12/2 stranded MC and try to leave the j-box resting on part of the ceiling grid when I close the last tile.

Depending on what brand you use there is a code compliant way to install these in a 2x2 grid ceiling. Halo makes these. I've used dozens of them with grid ceilings and they work very well. Has a provision for mounting the box directly to the frame.

 

[Eddie702]

Lets say in old work you drill a hole through plaster for a 4" light. Stud finders don't work on plaster. You find you in the middle of rafters 2' on center. No way your going to mount that box.

Furthermore, if the box has no markings for box fill and contains the driver is it really a listed junction box?

Is an old time fluorescent fixture with 4' lamps a junction box because you splice inside and continue to another fixture?

 

[tortuga]

Lets say in old work you drill a hole through plaster for a 4" light. Stud finders don't work on plaster. You find you in the middle of rafters 2' on center. No way your going to mount that box.

Furthermore, if the box has no markings for box fill and contains the driver is it really a listed junction box?

Is an old time fluorescent fixture with 4' lamps a junction box because you splice inside and continue to another fixture?

I get it and I have done the exact install you describe and not mounted the box in old-work, but I would not pretend its code-legal, its a work around hack for old work.
Under NEC 410.30(A) and UL 1598 Clause 11.3, there is no provision that allows a luminaire junction box to simply "float" or rest on a non-structural surface like a ceiling tile. (Article 100 the the definition of a Luminaire would cover and include this junction box as part of the Luminaire.)
If the junction box is not secured to a building member (using clips, fasteners and the provided mounting holes/tabs, a pan), the installation violates both the NEC's 410.30(A) "securely supported" requirement and UL 1598. If it was legal renovation recessed can lights would have just had a junction box hanging off a piece of flex decades ago.

 

[kwired]

I've installed a few of these wafer lights in 2x2 ceiling tiles in drop ceilings. There's basically no place to support the j-box even if you were so inclined. The ones I've installed give you maybe 9 cu-in of space for the terminations. The j-box weighs about 12 ounces and feels like it's made of heavy duty aluminum foil. I wire them with 12/2 stranded MC and try to leave the j-box resting on part of the ceiling grid when I close the last tile.

If ceiling isn't suspended too far from structural ceiling I usually attach the box to a framing member above the light location.

 

[kwired]

Depending on what brand you use there is a code compliant way to install these in a 2x2 grid ceiling. Halo makes these. I've used dozens of them with grid ceilings and they work very well. Has a provision for mounting the box directly to the frame.

I mostly use Juno, they have a flat pan I have inspector that thinks I need to use on new construction:

those two screws with rubber washer under them (approximately top middle) fit keyhole mounting slots of Juno driver box and no need for a tool to install or remove. Still kind of a pain to align it through the ceiling after it is covered though. I almost never attach them if installing driver after ceiling is up. They are handy to pre attach the driver if you are doing so for whatever reason, but make sure to cover the plug or drywallers/painters will probably fill it with mud or paint.

I have used other brand frames - they have no mounting provision that matches up to the holes in a Juno driver enclosure, some don't really appear to have any provision at all for mounting a driver.

I agree as code is written the driver should be mounted unless the luminaire has listed instructions that say otherwise. But listing requirements that have been pointed out seem to say they should be mounted as well. I've used 3 and 4 inch luminaires - they are not practical at all to try to mount or remove the driver from below finished ceiling, 6 inch is more able to be done but still big pain you basically doing this one handed and can't really see what you are doing either.

ETA: this pan wouldn't work with ceiling grid

 

[nizak]

Some are designed with the jbox attached to the LED/trim like the Satco S39012 or the Halo CLB4. No need to separately mount the jbox on these.

Rob G

Lets say in old work you drill a hole through plaster for a 4" light. Stud finders don't work on plaster. You find you in the middle of rafters 2' on center. No way your going to mount that box.

Furthermore, if the box has no markings for box fill and contains the driver is it really a listed junction box?

Is an old time fluorescent fixture with 4' lamps a junction box because you splice inside and continue to another fixture?

Some of the Mfgr install instructions specifically say that in remodel applications the driver does not need to be secured.

 

[infinity]

Some of the Mfgr install instructions specifically say that in remodel applications the driver does not need to be secured.

Do you have a link to that documentation? In one of our CEU discussions it was discussed that all boxes are required to be supported. Maybe it could be argued that these boxes do not fall under Article 314 so 314.23 does not apply.