wall space

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binney

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What we have is a sunk in living room. The kitchen, dining and lv room are all in one big room. The lv room is sunken down approx. 8-9". I feel the sunken partion should be considered wall space. Our plans even show a couch with a table and lamp against the 9" portion. Where are they going to plug the lamp in.

Article 210.52(2) descibes wall space but never gives it a height.

Article 210.52(2)(3)The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free-standing bar-type counters or railings.

I feel the 9" drop in the floor is a room divider and outlets should be required every 12'.

My coworkers feel i'm being too picky on this one, but I feel that there is a very good chance that there will be a lamp against this portion, and if people put lamps in, there going to plug them in, somewhere, somehow.

Just to give you the history, we've wired this particular model dozens of times and have never been called on it. If I was the AHJ, I would require outlets.

What do u think?
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: wall space

Binnie your right 210.52 a 1 and 2 ANY SPACE 2FT this is a knee wall and (unbroken along floor line)Maybe you been lucky and he just hasn't caught this.What will it cost if it's caught on a final or the home owner has an electrician friend that point's this out.They could come after the EC and the inspector.
We had to put in a floor box in what was hall/walkway to 2 bedrooms and a bath along a stair rail .It was a loft type family room and no furniture could be placed there without looking stupid and blocking the path to the rooms.The owner flat out didn't want this recepticle and we argued that this is hallway (under 10ft )
Outcome was put it in and at owners request i made it easy to remove after they got the final.No i didn't remove it but it's gone now.
My advice is put them in.In your case you know they will be needed.
 
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binney

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Re: wall space

That's 1 vote for me.

Truthfully, it'n not just one inspector. The model home company we wire for covers a good portion of our state. And like anywhere we have some tough inspectors, they've called us on some of the stupidest things, but not 1 has called us on this.
 
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binney

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Re: wall space

there's no railing & it is wide open, but it divides the lv room into a seperates section and is intended to place couch and or coffe table against.

It is sort of a step but it is approx. 20' in length. That's why I think it should be wall space. What is the minimum height for it to be wall space? In my eyes if there's room to place something in front of it, it should be considered wall space.
 
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luke warmwater

Senior Member
Re: wall space

quickly thinking, a wall would be something that one could not easily walk through, or step over and would devide a room. I don't know of a height to be considered a wall, such as a knee wall.
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: wall space

OK this is probably a AHJ call but knowing how it is used i think it needs recepticles.
Just how high would it need to be before you call it a wall , 2 feet , 18 inches , 1 foot , 8 inches.Will the height change it's use ?
Im sure the GC don't want to pay for a few more recepticles
 
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pierre

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
Re: wall space

In this case I believe the building official would determine if this is a wall or not. His determination would then give you a direction to follow. If you are concerned, ask the building official.

Pierre
 
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inspector 102

Senior Member
Location
Northern Indiana
Re: wall space

If the height of the "step" does not exceed the height of a step defined in the building code, then I would not consider this a wall and therefore receptacle spacing would not be applicable. If this is a design issue and receptacles are installed, then this would be in addition to the required receptacles. Art. 210.52(A)(2) states that wall spaces is considered broken at doorways, fireplaces and similar openings. This could be considered as the opening into the living room area and therefore exempt. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. Have a good one.
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: wall space

A 20 foot wide step,Possibly but unlikely.How about 12 foot book case ? or a fireplace with exstended side for a total of say 10 feet.We just might be able to not need any recepticles in a living room if we used these items where walls would have been.
 
charlie b

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: wall space

Originally posted by binney: Article 210.52(A)(3) The space afforded by fixed room dividers such as free-standing bar-type counters or railings. I feel the 9" drop in the floor is a room divider and outlets should be required every 12'.
Click to expand...
I agree with this statement. If the brochure that the developer gives out to perspective buyers identifies this space as a "living room," then I agree even more strongly with this statement.

Code issues aside, however, I think the future owner(s) would like to have outlets available in the space you have described as a ?living room.? From a design perspective, I would put in the outlets. From a code perspective, Article 210.52(A)(3) might be the closest you will come to an enforceable requirement.
 
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earlydean

Senior Member
Re: wall space

An inspector can only enforce the minimum that is code required. A legal step is no taller than 7-8 inches, railing is not required unless the drop is 30 inches or more. This 7-8 inch step, no matter how wide, is not a wall. If your house were built in Hawaii and had no walls, only posts to hold the roof up, would you need any receptacles? Common sense says yes, but the code says none are required. The inspector couldn't enforce receptacles in this wall-less Hawaiian house or at our step. If, however, the "step" were, say, 12 inches, it would no longer be a legal step, and could be classified as a recpactle requiring wall. But, there would also have to be short sections of legal steps installed for access to the room.
 
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caj1962

Senior Member
Re: wall space

I have done sevral houses in the upper scale price range with this type of STEP. Looking at the opening size, you say 20 feet, lets think about what must be under that prtion of step/floor surley it must probably be some type of solidbuilding material, dimension lumber or lamainated beem to carry the roof line that is probabl above it. I don't know many carpenters that would cut 5 1/2 in studs put a top plate and bottom plate on to make this a wall space.
Are you going to sut into dimensional lumber to install a work box? Are you going to require the home buyer/owner to decorate to the way your picture of this house is? To have a step into a sunken whatever you want to call it room is not uncommon.
I have learned so much from this forum and yet am amazed that things that I take as "common" sense become topics with 40 - 50 replies. Our job as an electrical professional is hard enough without reading "gray areas " where there are none. Steps are steps and walls are walls
 
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earlydean

Senior Member
Re: wall space

Right on!, caj1962. Common sense would tell us that if the user wanted outlets for furniture in the middle of the room, he would have us install a floor box for the purpose. (And pay for it)
 
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bill addiss

Senior Member
Re: wall space

I believe I've seen this drop labelled as a Step on plans.

At one House where I've seen this a previous Electrician did cut into it for a Dimmer switch. With all of the wood he had to chop out of what is essentially a Floor joist I can't see that it was legal. I wouldn't have done it.

Bill
 
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jimwalker

Senior Member
Location
TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: wall space

That is why many AHJ don't inspect framing till the trades are finished.
We can not do structural damage or cut trusses ,but that doesn't alter what is required or not required
 
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