Warning ribbon confusion

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Jim W in Tampa said:
Please do because as much as i disagree the code simply was poorly written or i just have been seasoned to believe the tape was always required. Without warning a backhoe will take that service out in conduit or concrete or both. When digging we usually only go a few inches at a time so we spot the tape.
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ohmhead said:
Well Jim ive never have been engaged or involved in any code changes there is someone at work in our office that is and has
contacts with the members who can who can act or help with this maybe we can correct what needs to be added
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It amazes me that both of you think a plastic ribbon will protect conductors from heavy equipment.
 
I think it is obvious that the intent of the required ribbon is to try to protect people who are hand digging from stuffing a hand shovel into a cable or conductor. Like a homeowner digging a hole in the front yard for a tree.

I do not believe that the NEC required ribbon is intened to protect cables, conductors, raceways from mechanical excavation.










Tell me how a ribbon helps protect a PVC raceway from excavations done with any of the below?

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backhoe-2.JPG


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If you are digging with any of the above equipment and you do not already know there are buried utilities it is very, very .... very unlikely that the ribbon will help a bit.


If you already know there are buried utilities the ribbon may be a bit of a help but still takes a skilled operator.
 
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(3) Service Conductors. Underground service conductors that are not encased in concrete and that are buried 450 mm (18 in.) or more below grade shall have their location identified by a warning ribbon that is placed in the trench at least 300 mm (12 in.) above the underground installation.
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iwire said:
It says service conductors not service raceways, it does not apply to service raceways.
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OK, I agree it doesn't apply to raceways. I don't understand how having service conductors installed in a raceway exempts them from this requirement.
 
iwire said:
It says service conductors not service raceways, it does not apply to service raceways.
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I agree, and have argued with some inspectors over this. Around here the POCO may require it so the argument is moot.:)
 
iwire said:
I think it is obvious that the intent of the required ribbon is to try to protect people who are hand digging from stuffing a hand shovel into a cable or conductor. Like a homeowner digging a hole in the front yard for a tree.

I do not believe that the NEC required ribbon is intened to protect cables, conductors, raceways from mechanical excavation.










Tell me how a ribbon helps protect a PVC raceway from excavations done with any of the below?

url


url


backhoe-2.JPG


url


If you are digging with any of the above equipment and you do not already know there are buried utilities it is very, very .... very unlikely that the ribbon will help a bit.


If you already know there are buried utilities the ribbon may be a bit of a help but still takes a skilled operator.
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Well we disagree with you as always ! It does help and we use the equipment above mostly the track hoe rubber tires are useless inside a building they mess up the project and you cant move around much . Trenchers mostly for site but never downtown no one would ever uses a trencher on a city block your just looking for trouble there never seen a trencher in town yet highly unlikely .

Track hoes are the best we hire a pro and lots of times i dig myself after many years you can feel a pipe with a welded blade across the teeth they call it a pipe finder . It helps and touch & skim easy at low speed the top of the duck bank or pipes but we usally hit the tape first and then its a little shovel & touch 3 inches at a time i know you know what i talking about but your just helping me to get to 1000 posts .Most of our workers take a course and we get a operators license then years of doing
 
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iwire said:
It amazes me that both of you think a plastic ribbon will protect conductors from heavy equipment.
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I am amazed the your amazed LOL
Bob, all the ribbon in the world will not save wire from stupid people.
Either you hand dig or use a machine. Either one must be done with some degree of skill. If the operator does not go slow and take only a few inches at a times then i agree the ribbon will not help. You dig slow and you will see the ribbon, perhaps in pieces but you will see it. Now if there is no ribbon then your going to hit it and likely destroy it even if it is in PVC. Nothing is idiot proof. The ribbon is an aid not a cure.

I do agree that the words of nec does not require ribbon for conduit, but it should
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
I am amazed the your amazed LOL
Bob, all the ribbon in the world will not save wire from stupid people.
Either you hand dig or use a machine. Either one must be done with some degree of skill. If the operator does not go slow and take only a few inches at a times then i agree the ribbon will not help. You dig slow and you will see the ribbon, perhaps in pieces but you will see it. Now if there is no ribbon then your going to hit it and likely destroy it even if it is in PVC. Nothing is idiot proof. The ribbon is an aid not a cure.

I do agree that the words of nec does not require ribbon for conduit, but it should
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I have no idea what you are saying but lets see what the CMP said when it was proposed to extend the ribbon requirement to raceways. It shows I was wrong about the concern being hand digging but still shows what the section is aimed at.

BTW this has been shot down at least two code cycles in a row.


3-38 Log #678 NEC-P03

Panel Statement: Direct buried service conductors are much more easily damaged, even when the operator is scratching the surface of the trench to locate the conductors, than when the conductors are installed in a raceway. A backhoe operator can damage any raceway system if the operator is not paying attention and has no idea that anything is buried below.


All utility companies have a service that will mark the ground directly above the service conductors, whether the conductors are directly buried or not, so anyone digging in that area will be less likely to damage their conductors. Cable locators should be used before any trenching or backhoe work is started in an area where service conductors may be buried. The primary concern for service conductors is providing an indicator, such as a warning ribbon, for direct burial cables, especially where those cables have no other form of protection.

Schedule 80 PVC could certainly be used as a protection method for underground service conductors or cables. Restricting the protection to metal conduit would not recognize this alternative protection method. A backhoe operator could damage cables or conductors in any wiring method installed but a raceway will provide some level of protection for these service conductors. Direct burial cables are not protected, so a warning ribbon is a method to help identify the location for these conductors and provide some warning that service cables are located below.
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Well heres what we dig with
P1010121_01.jpg
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P1010117_01-1.jpg
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My best work The one on the track hoe is me I dont like people taking pictures of me when i work that was for my boss the bigg hoe you can see how much junk is in the way existing we must be real easy going and a few pictures for fun that bobcat vertical is me i was in it for a few minutes not a good picture but cell phones are ok sometimes . The guy back filling is Jamie hes on my crew hes a little better at it then me i get wild sometimes !

The tree is for shade over the pull box it gets hot in florida we must find a way to keep cool sometimes !
 
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"The tree is for shade over the pull box it gets hot in florida we must find a way to keep cool sometimes ! "
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Necessity is the mother of invention. :grin:
 
So in this photo how are you marking it? one ribbon in the middle, one ribbon along each side or one ribbon per conduit? :grin:


P1010121_01.jpg
 
Sometimes i wonder if the CMP has ever been in the field. Seems like they are in the dark over what happens in real life.

Only real value i see in the ribbon is if it is there it might save the wire or a life. Dam sure not counting on it to be there. I have had clueless helpers that lay the ribbon on top of the pvc. No idea what good that would do.

All i can say here is NEC has once again shown us either they can't write or are ignorant of the problems of anything in the ground.

Makes no since at all. Why pour concrete on wires to save ribbon. Put it in conduit and will be no need to be digging it up.
 
Well Bob we install a tape for each conductor in the pipe this ditch had 75 ribbons hee hee !:D


Ok just a joke Bob we today use two in a wide trench one on each side plus asbuild on the drawns but 30 years from now prints get lost so the ribbon or tape can be found at one or two feet above the duck bank concrete cap this picture was 4 feet down as fill was graded on top of our trench after one feet of fill we also before final fill poured a concrete top just a topping over conduits a cap not total encasement and run a 3/0 bare down the line with it .

You can criss X cross your tape if you like or run it straight your choice .
 
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