Water/ice machine

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hurk27 said:
I don't see any allowance for a 20 amp receptacle to serve a 19.2 amp load, Table 210.21(B)(2) only allows a 16 amp load on a 20 amp receptacle, But I don't see anything that prevents a 30 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit, personly I would go with hard wired.
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To make matters worse, Table 210.21(B)(3) seems to indicate that you can't put a 30 amp recep. on a 25 amp branch circuit. I do agree you can't have more than 16 amp on a 20 amp recep, per Table 210.21(B)(2). This seems to be one of those cases where the only compliant method would be hard wired. ???
 
texie said:
To make matters worse, Table 210.21(B)(3) seems to indicate that you can't put a 30 amp recep. on a 25 amp branch circuit. I do agree you can't have more than 16 amp on a 20 amp recep, per Table 210.21(B)(2). This seems to be one of those cases where the only compliant method would be hard wired. ???
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T210.21(B)(2) and(3) are for two or more receptacles (including a duplex) not a single receptacle. Also a 30 amp single receptacle is permitted on a 25 amp circuit {210.21(B)(1).}
 
Well I still agree with ME....:D and I don't think there is a case where a 20 amp recep can be installed on a 25 amp circuit
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Well I still agree with ME....:D and I don't think there is a case where a 20 amp recep can be installed on a 25 amp circuit
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You can do that for welders.
210.21(B)(3) Exception

Also, the 25A in the OP is max OCPD, just like on an HVAC unit MCA=19A, Max OCPD=25A
He could use a 20A breaker as long as it didn't trip on startup or inrush current.
 
Little Bill said:
You can do that for welders.
210.21(B)(3) Exception

Also, the 25A in the OP is max OCPD, just like on an HVAC unit MCA=19A, Max OCPD=25A
He could use a 20A breaker as long as it didn't trip on startup or inrush current.
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I agree a 20 amp circuit may work all day long but generally I like to use the max so that as the unit ages there may be less of a chance of the ocpd tripping. Also why leave an ice machine on gfci and cord and plug. Too easy for the plug to come undone or for the gfci to trip. I would want an alarm on it.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I agree a 20 amp circuit may work all day long but generally I like to use the max so that as the unit ages there may be less of a chance of the ocpd tripping. Also why leave an ice machine on gfci and cord and plug. Too easy for the plug to come undone or for the gfci to trip. I would want an alarm on it.
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I agree. I wasn't saying I would connect this way. I was only trying to show that the OP could, should he choose, connect this way.
 
Regardless of what code says (I know) I would likely use any receptacle besides a 5-20 configuration. Locking receptacle is probably my likely choice most of the time. This in a way makes it dedicated to that equipment and if that equipment ever goes away at least you don't have a 5-20 there that is now just a general purpose receptacle and who knows what may be plugged into it - and it is not on a 20 amp breaker like it is supposed to be. If new equipment comes along that needs dedicated source at least someone has to evaluate what is there and make decisions of what to use instead of just seeing a 5-20 and assuming it is ok to use it.
 
Thanks for the replies people. The full story behind this is this ice maching is to go in a space that was just recently remodeled. The contractor, I'm sure per the print, provided a dedicated 20 amp circuit to a GFCI receptacle. Well, the the ice machine finally showed up and the maintenance guy wanted to put 12/3 cord on the machine with a 20 amp cord end. I told him he could not do this.

The thing with this is, the only reason I knew he was going to do this is because he stopped to tell me I was out of 20 amp, 90 degree cord ends. Since it is a little rare when 20 amp ends are used I asked what he was using one for. If he would have never stopped to tell me I needed more ends the machine would be plugged into a 20 amp GFCI and this thead would have never been started.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
A gfci receptacle is a duplex receptacle not a single receptacle according to art. 100 definition of receptacle.

If you connect this to a 25 amp circuit how will you connect it to a 15 or 20 amp recep. Look at 210.21(B)(2)

If you direct wire it then you will not need gfci protection.
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Are you saying that if you hard wire a water drinking fountain, you don't need GFCI protection?
 
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I would submit that if the unit came from the factory with a 20-amp plug, and the unit has a UL lable, that the issue has alredy been debated, and that a 2-amp receptacle is just fine.

Indeed, some here can be counted upon to take the position that it would violate code to remove the factory pigtail and hard-wire the unit.

Supply your own pigtail? Well, I'd be wary of wire sizing; most ready-made pigtails are smaller than #12.

Though the NEC defines a circuits' ampacity by the size of the OCPD's, that definition fails to account for the variety of times that OCPD sizing rules are modified for specific loads, like air conditioners.

For example, I'm thinking of all the 40-amp (max OCPD) air conditioners I've installed using 25-amp (#12) wire. I just can't get around how the NEC would call that a '40-amp' circuit, though it was never intended for that circuit to carry 40 amps for any length of time.

I'll admit to a bias in favor of cord & plug connections. This equipment gets moved around, either for maintenance or cleaning, a lot more than you'd think. Sure, there's also a water line tying it down ... but I'd just as soon have only one such 'anchor' to fight with.
 
renosteinke said:
I would submit that if the unit came from the factory with a 20-amp plug, and the unit has a UL lable, that the issue has alredy been debated, and that a 2-amp receptacle is just fine.

Indeed, some here can be counted upon to take the position that it would violate code to remove the factory pigtail and hard-wire the unit.

Supply your own pigtail? Well, I'd be wary of wire sizing; most ready-made pigtails are smaller than #12.

Though the NEC defines a circuits' ampacity by the size of the OCPD's, that definition fails to account for the variety of times that OCPD sizing rules are modified for specific loads, like air conditioners.

For example, I'm thinking of all the 40-amp (max OCPD) air conditioners I've installed using 25-amp (#12) wire. I just can't get around how the NEC would call that a '40-amp' circuit, though it was never intended for that circuit to carry 40 amps for any length of time.

I'll admit to a bias in favor of cord & plug connections. This equipment gets moved around, either for maintenance or cleaning, a lot more than you'd think. Sure, there's also a water line tying it down ... but I'd just as soon have only one such 'anchor' to fight with.
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There is quick connect water fittings also, or even hose bibb - look at household laundry equipment.
 
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