water tank bonding jumper

[George Stolz]

Mike, this is what I teach at my grounding and bonding classes, let me know where I am mistaken:







I wasn't wiring in 1975, but I do see houses that were wired in 1975, and I do not see bonding jumpers around shower mixing valves. I do not see bonding jumpers around couplings that were soldered together. Was every structure built in violation of the NEC, or was the existing installation method of the plumbers of the day sufficient for bonding as well?



Is CMP-5 mistaken in their written statement?

 

[mjf]

250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural
Steel.
(A) Metal Water Piping.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or
attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the
service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the
service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient
size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used.
The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table
250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

If you read insanely far into this, not only would you need to separately bond the hot water, but since potable water is not specified, you also must bond the metal waste water drainage piping system, and the metal gutter/downspout water drainage piping system.

On the other hand, I personally don't really believe any piping is "likely to become energized".

 

[jxofaltrds]

"I wasn't wiring in 1975, but I do see houses that were wired in 1975, and I do not see bonding jumpers around shower mixing valves. I do not see bonding jumpers around couplings that were soldered together. Was every structure built in violation of the NEC, or was the existing installation method of the plumbers of the day sufficient for bonding as well? "

I never said this!!!!!

Back in the day they made only one connection to the water line electrode as close to the panel as possible. Do we do that today? NO.

Why is it so hard for non-plumbers to understand that the interior water lines are divided into more than one 'system'?



Hot water tanks, water softeners, fixtures, toilets, tubs, etc. are not part of metal water piping.

What will you do when they require sprinklers in single family homes and a backflow device is installed. Not worry about it?



This is exactly correct.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

"I wasn't wiring in 1975, but I do see houses that were wired in 1975, and I do not see bonding jumpers around shower mixing valves. I do not see bonding jumpers around couplings that were soldered together. Was every structure built in violation of the NEC, or was the existing installation method of the plumbers of the day sufficient for bonding as well? "

The plumbing connections between the piping and between the piping systems, assuming metallic faucet bodies is sufficient for the code required bonding.

...
Back in the day they made only one connection to the water line electrode as close to the panel as possible. Do we do that today? NO.

Maybe you don't we do around here and in many other areas there is not a bonding connection of the wire type between the hot and cold water systems.

Why is it so hard for non-plumbers to understand that the interior water lines are divided into more than one 'system'? ...

That is not the issue. The issue is what if the metallic faucet bodies are sufficient for the bonding between the two systems.

....What will you do when they require sprinklers in single family homes and a backflow device is installed. Not worry about it?

It is not likely that the dwelling unit fire sprinkler system will use metallic pipe. Even if they did, I would not require a bonding jumper of the wire type if the backflow device was metallic.

 

[kwired]

If an inspector is incapable of determining if two sections of piping are isolated they have no business inspecting.

Here is a typical shower valve'

Again, if an inspector can't tell this valve is connecting the hot and cold water systems perhaps they should get a job at Walmart as a greeter.

Does that make the pipe coming out the top a third system - need another bonding jumper I guess.

Why is it so hard for non-plumbers to understand that the interior water lines are divided into more than one 'system'?

Is it more then one system or is it one potable water system with multiple sub sections of some sort?

Is every branch circuit or feeder of the electrical installation a separate system or just a portion of a larger system?

I would agree that piping for a boiler system is a separate system, it may be inherently bonded by connection to the potable water system that supplies it with water, and if boiler system is a separate system then isn't it "other metal piping" and it is most likely sufficiently bonded by the EGC of the circuit to the circulating pump as well.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
On the other hand, I personally don't really believe any piping is "likely to become energized".

The water piping bonding rule does not use that phrase. Water piping [250.104(A)]systems are required to be bonded even where it is not likely to become energized. Other piping systems [250.104(B)] are only required to be bonded where they are "likely to become energized".

 

[jxofaltrds]

"Most electricians automatically bond the cold water line but do not ensure that the cold and the hot water lines are metallically interconnected through mixing valves in the plumbing fixtures. Since Section 250.104(A) requires all water-piping systems to be bonded back to the service, and hot or cold water lines are not specifically mentioned, both hot and cold water lines must be bonded and connected back to the building service. The bonding jumper from the cold to the hot water piping system must be sized in accordance with Section and Table 250.66."

From Feb. 2003

http://0323c7c.netsolhost.com/docs/Bonding pipes at water heater.PDF

Edit
For those who do not recognize the author

Mark C. Ode is a staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc.,

 

[John120/240]

Where is Mike Whitt when we need him ? Grounding/Bonding was always one of the topics he felt strongly about.

 

[hurk27]

"Most electricians automatically bond the cold water line but do not ensure that the cold and the hot water lines are metallically interconnected through mixing valves in the plumbing fixtures. Since Section 250.104(A) requires all water-piping systems to be bonded back to the service, and hot or cold water lines are not specifically mentioned, both hot and cold water lines must be bonded and connected back to the building service. The bonding jumper from the cold to the hot water piping system must be sized in accordance with Section and Table 250.66."

From Feb. 2003

http://0323c7c.netsolhost.com/docs/Bonding pipes at water heater.PDF

Edit
For those who do not recognize the author

Mark C. Ode is a staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc.,

Mike the article you are using backs our point of view:

Mark who I have met many times at IEAI meetings starts out stating that a few years ago most faucets at sinks were connected by chromed, soft-copper supply line with metal compression fittings at both ends, and in the essences of it that it made a proper bond between the hot and cold water pipes, now these are being connected flexible, high-pressure nonmetallic lines with metal compression fittings, so you don't have this bond, but he does not state that you have to have a wire bond if you do have a bond through the piping.

Here is a quote from that PDF:

If there is no direct metal-to-metal connection between the hot and cold water pipes, the
bonding jumper from the cold to the hot water line must still be installed, but the bonding jumper would be
sized in accordance with Section 250.122.

He gave us an example that a faucet at a sink would have a bond if metal to metal lines were used to connect the faucet to the angle stops at the wall in the first part of the article, he explained that the later use of nonmetallic lines has broken this connection, but as we know in many cases there is still a use of metal to metal body mixing valves used elsewhere in a plumbing system that can clearly make this connection, it has to be inspected on a case by case bases, if you find the above then a bond at the water heater is not needed, the article clearly accepts the metal to metal connection of the lines to the faucet at a sink as an acceptable bond, then the shower valve body should be no different, the quote above states only when you find no direct metal-to-metal connection between the hot and cold water pipes do you need to bond with a wire sized per 250.122.

Mike you can't just take a part of an article that fits what you want it to say, you must read the whole article and it is not saying what you are wanting it too.

 

[hurk27]

"Most electricians automatically bond the cold water line but do not ensure that the cold and the hot water lines are metallically interconnected through mixing valves in the plumbing fixtures. Since Section 250.104(A) requires all water-piping systems to be bonded back to the service, and hot or cold water lines are not specifically mentioned, both hot and cold water lines must be bonded and connected back to the building service. The bonding jumper from the cold to the hot water piping system must be sized in accordance with Section and Table 250.66."

From Feb. 2003

http://0323c7c.netsolhost.com/docs/Bonding pipes at water heater.PDF

Edit
For those who do not recognize the author

Mark C. Ode is a staff engineering associate at Underwriters Laboratories Inc.,

To add to the quote you posted, it states "Most electricians automatically bond the cold water line but do not ensure that the cold and the hot water lines are metallically interconnected through mixing valves in the plumbing fixtures."

I read this as if the electricians and inspectors do check that the hot water lines are metallically interconnected through mixing valves in the plumbing fixtures then a jumper is not needed, it's saying it is our job to check!

 

[mjf]

The water piping bonding rule does not use that phrase. Water piping [250.104(A)]systems are required to be bonded even where it is not likely to become energized. Other piping systems [250.104(B)] are only required to be bonded where they are "likely to become energized".

TY:slaphead:

To reiterate on the rest of my post, it doesn't exclude water piping systems like waste water piping systems or rain water piping systems, yet it would be absurd to bond them.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike the article you are using backs our point of view:


Mike you can't just take a part of an article that fits what you want it to say, you must read the whole article and it is not saying what you are wanting it too.

Exactly why I posted the link. I do not pick and choose what fits my argument like others do.

I give examples why it is not acceptable. All I hear is "I say that it is OK".

Then give me an example where you can show (not necessarily prove) that a fixture 'bonds' two piping systems together.

Any standard would do. Not your opinion!

Because you can't.

 

[George Stolz]

"Most electricians automatically bond the cold water line but do not ensure that the cold and the hot water lines are metallically interconnected through mixing valves in the plumbing fixtures..."

...because they always are, and in 10 years or so, everything will be piped in plastic anyway." :lol:

At the end of the day, I appreciate what Mr. Ode was saying - look around and don't put blinders on. I share the sentiment. Sometimes a look around can make a big difference, but one would be hard pressed to find an occasion where an individual would have been spared an electric shock had special attention been paid to a hot water pipe's bonding, where the rest of the installation bore no code violations.

In the real world, these have been bonded without us thinking twice about it, without wasting time and materials tending to getting it done two or three more times - and will no longer be an issue with the increasing popularity of PVC water piping.

I will close with the observation that some who are over zealous about bonding quite often overlook the fact that a "plastic water piping system" may feature metal components which do not require bonding by any stretch of the imagination, but will not sign the job off without requiring the performance of all manner of unnecessary work.

 

[George Stolz]

Then give me an example where you can show (not necessarily prove) that a fixture 'bonds' two piping systems together.

Any standard would do. Not your opinion!

Because you can't.

The NEC does not put any more requirements on the fixtures that tie the single system together any more than it does on the coupling of any two pieces of pipe in that single system. The NEC places no such requirements.

 

[jxofaltrds]

...because they always are, and in 10 years or so, everything will be piped in plastic anyway." :lol:

At the end of the day, I appreciate what Mr. Ode was saying - look around and don't put blinders on. I share the sentiment. Sometimes a look around can make a big difference, but one would be hard pressed to find an occasion where an individual would have been spared an electric shock had special attention been paid to a hot water pipe's bonding, where the rest of the installation bore no code violations.

In the real world, these have been bonded without us thinking twice about it, without wasting time and materials tending to getting it done two or three more times - and will no longer be an issue with the increasing popularity of PVC water piping.

I will close with the observation that some who are over zealous about bonding quite often overlook the fact that a "plastic water piping system" may feature metal components which do not require bonding by any stretch of the imagination, but will not sign the job off without requiring the performance of all manner of unnecessary work.

This is so over zealous that I should probably have my Certification taken away!

The fact that you would argue that this is stupid scares me!

 

[George Stolz]

This is so over zealous that I should probably have my Certification taken away!

View attachment 11235

Finally a statement I can agree with, if you require this of others. Do what you want on your own dime. Submit a proposal if you want to change the code to reflect what you want it to say.

The principle "when in doubt, bond it out" fosters a great degree of ignorance about the NEC, and perpetuates itself.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Finally a statement I can agree with, if you require this of others. Do what you want on your own dime. Submit a proposal if you want to change the code to reflect what you want it to say.

The principle "when in doubt, bond it out" fosters a great degree of ignorance about the NEC, and perpetuates itself.

Never said that I was "in Doubt". Just trying to explain what the code says.

 

[George Stolz]

"When in doubt, bond it out" is a common phrase used in the field, often when faced with a question on bonding that would require more study to argue than the installer is willing to do. It is reinforced when faced with an inspector requiring more than the code requires. Quite often, in the course of installing superfluous bonding bushings, jumpers and the like, real code violations go unnoticed and a false sense of superiority takes hold of the installer (edit: and sometimes, a false sense of security for the inspector as well.)

 

[hurk27]

Exactly why I posted the link. I do not pick and choose what fits my argument like others do.

I give examples why it is not acceptable. All I hear is "I say that it is OK".

Then give me an example where you can show (not necessarily prove) that a fixture 'bonds' two piping systems together.

Any standard would do. Not your opinion!

Because you can't.

And the link you posted writen by Mark Ode clearly accepts that the mechanical connections of most faucets and other plumbing fittings does in fact make an acceptable connection (bond) between the hot and cold water lines, does all faucets make this connection, NO but if it has a brass or conductive body that is electrically connected between the two pipes I would say it does, Mark Ode seems to think so, but we have to look for it when we are wiring or inspecting.

Below is a quote from the NECH of 250.104(A)(1)

Where it cannot be reasonably concluded that the hot
and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical
connections, an electrical bonding jumper is required to
ensure that this connection is made. Some judgment must be
exercised for each installation. Isolated sections of metal
piping (such as may be used for a plumbing fixture connection)
that are connected to an overall nonmetallic water piping
system are not subject to the requirements of
250.104(A). The isolated sections are not a metal water piping
system. The special installation requirements provided
in 250.64(A), (B), and (E) also apply to the water piping
bonding jumper.

This is also from a very high up NFPA person Mark W. Earley, P.E., i s Chief Electrical Engineer at NFPA.

Again he clearly emphasizes that if we can reasonably concluded that the hot
and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical
connection, then no other bond is needed.

And goes on to say

Some judgment must be exercised for each installation

This judgment is for us to determine if the jumper is needed, if there is a electro/mechanical
connection then it is clear that the jumper is not needed.

Sure we can be lazy and just say all electro/mechanical connections are not good enough but in reality we know this is not true.

I have seen some of these electro/mechanical connections handle hundreds of amps from a welder being used to thaw out frozen pipes without failing, so your not going to convince me that they are not good enough.

I'm so glad the State of Indiana does not require this jumper as long as there is a electro/mechanical connection, the shower faucets in the post above would be one that would be clearly accepted, as well as many other types of hot to cold electro/mechanical connections you will find in most houses, in doing some searches I also find that many other juridictions also feel the same way as does this city in California in this PDF of their electrical requirment, see the second page #10 d, I found many others like this one:

City of La Palma, Ca

Or this one: City of San Jose

Which here is a quote from it:

Note: Piping is commonly bonded at the water heater. The hot and cold water piping systems are effectively bonded together via plumbing mixing valves at tubs and showers, etc. Therefore, the City of San Jose accepts a single bond to the cold water piping only. Note: An independent bonding jumper to the hot water piping is not required.

 

[jxofaltrds]

And there is the rub:

"Again he clearly emphasizes that if we can reasonably concluded that the hot
and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical
connection, then no other bond is needed."

We will never agree. And that is ok.

I will always contend that a fixture was not installed to meet:

Bonded (Bonding). Connected to establish electrical continuity
and conductivity.

Its only function is to supply water.