Wearing 2 hats

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ivsenroute said:
This may be a thread better suited for the Electrical Contracting/Estimating area but this follows along the lines of code enforcement of the NEC.

I see plenty of locked threads as a result of the inspector vs electrician issue.

I just happen to wear both hats. I cover 3 municipalities as an electrical inspector on a part time basis while I still do electrical work elsewhere. This changes how I look at things but does not change the way I operate.

As an inspector, I have an obligation to protect the public by enforcing minimum requirements. The actual purpose of a code is to provide minimum requirement to safeguard the public safety, health and general welfare………….and protect them from hazards attributed to the built environment. Blah, blah, blah. Basically, we make sure that any hazardous/unsafe conditions are taken care of.

Remember, some of you work in areas such as PA where the ICC codes are adopted and the NEC is a reference standard only. There is language in the IRC for example in the first couple of chapters that explain enforcement.

It does not matter what you pull your permit for because once we enter and see a health or safety matter, we must act. And, since you are the one there doing the work, we will assume that you are going to take care of and let the homeowner know if they are not there during the inspection. You as a hired professional are in the line of communication to educate the consumer about unsafe conditions. All electrical problems are safety issues. Are you as the electrician ultimately responsible for the work that you are not contracted to do? No, you are not, the homeowner is. You are the means to get the home in a safe condition. Hopefully you have a very specific contract that you had the homeowner sign stating exactly what you are there for. When you pull a general electrical permit and there is no signed legal contract to look at then you will find yourself whining on the message board about the unfair inspector.

When I wear my electrician’s hat I am very careful to get a good look at the house within reason and include the repair of any unsafe conditions that I may see. Other times, I just build it into my price so obvious things are taken care of.

For example: I am putting together a bid to do some electrical work in a newly purchased home. While going over what the new homeowner wants I noticed about 6 junction box cover plates missing. I will cover those costs by adding them to my bid (time and material) and just do it so it is not an issue. When I see unsecured NM cable no matter how old it is, I just add securing it to my price. These are very simple, easy but obvious items that just may be pointed out by an inspector. I try to be proactive about the work that I do so we don’t run into any snags. If there is a large, expensive repair that the homeowner does not want addressed then I go over the issue both verbally and in the contract and let them know that they may be forced to make the repair if the inspector sees it. It is simple communication and working like this makes the difference between being in a profession or industry. I would rather have a profession rather than work in an industry.

Will your bid be higher than your competitor? I sure hope so because I never want to be known as the lowballer. I would rather be known as the guy who is a little more expensive but has great attention to detail and a solid reputation.

Just be proactive and these little whining sessions won’t be necessary.
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you should be ashamed of yourself and stop trying to save the world. You probably lose lots of sleep at night.
 
ivsenroute said:
When I wear my electrician?s hat I am very careful to get a good look at the house within reason and include the repair of any unsafe conditions that I may see. Other times, I just build it into my price so obvious things are taken care of.

For example: I am putting together a bid to do some electrical work in a newly purchased home. While going over what the new homeowner wants I noticed about 6 junction box cover plates missing. I will cover those costs by adding them to my bid (time and material) and just do it so it is not an issue. When I see unsecured NM cable no matter how old it is, I just add securing it to my price. These are very simple, easy but obvious items that just may be pointed out by an inspector. I try to be proactive about the work that I do so we don?t run into any snags. If there is a large, expensive repair that the homeowner does not want addressed then I go over the issue both verbally and in the contract and let them know that they may be forced to make the repair if the inspector sees it. It is simple communication and working like this makes the difference between being in a profession or industry. I would rather have a profession rather than work in an industry.
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you are not giving them a bid...you are simply giving them a rate for a basically undefined scope of work...if you find a problem along the way, you fix it and add the time and material to your bill...

unless you take too long, give them too big of a bill, and have them not want to pay...then what do you do?

if you give them a fixed price, for a defined scope of work, you can either fix the problems on your dime....or create a change order and let the customer know the additional cost....

and what's the worst case scenerio? you tell the customer the problem, let them know the cost, and have them say no...then when the inspector comes, have him tell the customer not to worry about it, doesn't need to be done...

now you are a thief in the eyes of the customer...thank you Mr. Inspector...
 
We always point out any existing violations to the customer, and if they don't want them corrected, specifically exclude them from our contract. We also exclude any existing conditions that may be in violation that we don't see. (sorry, I don't remember the exact wording.)

I know that inspectors are often required by law to note any violations that are not part of the permit, but unfortunately, the only leverage they have against the HO in most cases is our inspection. However, this often makes more work/money for us.
 
JohnJ0906 said:
unfortunately, the only leverage they have against the HO in most cases is our inspection.
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Is that really the case or is it that it is much simpler for the EI not to pass your work instead of following up the other avenues that are surly available to them.
 
iwire said:
Is that really the case or is it that it is much simpler for the EI not to pass your work instead of following up the other avenues that are surly available to them.
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ding ding ding
 
iwire said:
Is that really the case or is it that it is much simpler for the EI not to pass your work instead of following up the other avenues that are surly available to them.
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As you have posted, MA has clear directions (law) for the inspectors to follow... and good for them! I would have to see how the laws are written here.
You might very well be correct though. It could just be the easy way out for them.
 
if I found an unsafe situation during an inspection that was not part of the EC's permit, the EC's work would pass providing there are no violations and the owner would be given a notice at the site and a violation notice sent in the mail with a time to get a permit & make it safe, it depends on your area, but its not that hard or complicated, find out the administrative code in your area that pertains to existing violations, thats all the inspector can enforce
 
C3PO said:
Maybe I am crazy, but it seems to me like most members of this site really dislike electrical inspectors.
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I know I don't dislike inspectors and I bet 480sparky has no problem with inspectors. :smile:

I would have a problem being forced to fix things that have nothing to do with me.
 
no problem with inspectors that only site violations that they back up with code numbers.Without them we will have hack type work.They are needed and most play fair.
 
I have had several remodel/addition jobs that have been tagged because of existing stuff that really needed to be fixed. I didn't have a problem with it and felt like it needed fixed. I wasn't told I had to fix it. The HI was told he had to fix it if he wanted to continue to have electricity. The HI decided he would pay me to fix it. It was horrible work and needed fixed, I didn't get bent out of shape about it and it was really no big deal.

Around here on existing stuff the EI's do not deliberately look around for existing violations, but if there are some staring them in the face they want them fixed. Usually I will fix them before the inspector shows up, unless the HI doesn't want to pay for it.
 
C3PO said:
Maybe I am crazy, but it seems to me like most members of this site really dislike electrical inspectors.
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I think you are crazy I have not gotten that feeling reading this post, what we dislike is inspectors going outside their legal job description.

They can point out discrepancies outside the permit to the HO and EC, other than that unless there are local laws to back up their actions the HO is own his/her own.
 
C3PO said:
I have had several remodel/addition jobs that have been tagged because of existing stuff that really needed to be fixed. I didn't have a problem with it
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Well you should. :D

Your work should pass if it meets code, no other work should be part of you passing or failing.

Now once I get a pass for my work I will be happy to do whatever other work the HO is willing to pay me to do. :)
 
iwire said:
Lets not forget that many inspections are not in single family homes.

I get sent to install some new receptacles at a store in a mall, I am working for the store. When the inspector comes to inspect my work he walks through the mall and he sees some legitimate electrical safety issues in the common areas.

Should the inspector hold up my inspection for the tenant space because the malls owner has violations in the common area?
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No it has nothing to do with the work you are contracting you should not be held up for your inspection.Unless it is fire alarm issues / Life safety then the mall should be charged for a firewatch until the problems are corrected.
 
C3PO said:
I have had several remodel/addition jobs that have been tagged because of existing stuff that really needed to be fixed. I didn't have a problem with it and felt like it needed fixed. I wasn't told I had to fix it. The HI was told he had to fix it if he wanted to continue to have electricity. The HI decided he would pay me to fix it. It was horrible work and needed fixed, I didn't get bent out of shape about it and it was really no big deal.

Around here on existing stuff the EI's do not deliberately look around for existing violations, but if there are some staring them in the face they want them fixed. Usually I will fix them before the inspector shows up, unless the HI doesn't want to pay for it.
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you mean HO I think, not HI
 
I know that inspectors are often required by law to note any violations that are not part of the permit, but unfortunately, the only leverage they have against the HO in most cases is our inspection. However, this often makes more work/money for us.
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See, more money for the electrician to pay the bills. We have a safer house, more money in the pocket of the electrician and alls well that ends well.
 
ivsenroute said:
See, more money for the electrician to pay the bills. We have a safer house, more money in the pocket of the electrician and alls well that ends well.
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If your inspecting a home and see real safety issues you as the inspector should be taking that up with the property owner. When the EC tries to bring it up to the property owner the property owner is probably going to assume the EC is only trying to get make more money on the job.

Once the property owner is made aware of the issues they can decide if the EC on the job there is going to make the corrections or if they want someone else to do it.

Again, a lot of inspections are in other then single family owner occupied homes.
 
find out in your area who is responsible for existing problems found during an inspection, you will probably find it is the owner, if thats the case make the inspector do his or her job and cite the owner
 
iwire said:
If your inspecting a home and see real safety issues you as the inspector should be taking that up with the property owner. When the EC tries to bring it up to the property owner the property owner is probably going to assume the EC is only trying to get make more money on the job.

Once the property owner is made aware of the issues they can decide if the EC on the job there is going to make the corrections or if they want someone else to do it.

Again, a lot of inspections are in other then single family owner occupied homes.
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Bob, save your breath. These guys don't get it and probably never will unless they spend some time in the real world. Thank god we don't have to deal with this kind of "I have to save the world" asinine thinking.
 
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