Wet location

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djt227

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Installed XHHW in a marina per the specs. Conduit and wire are completly under water when tide is in and when tide goes out conduits stay full because of the 90's. My question is when the code refers to wet locations to what extreme is wet. In my situation are my conductors in a wet location or are they concidered underwater. Also is XHHW rated for the continuous underwater enviroment?

Thanks Jay
 
Wet Location

Wet Location

djt227 said:
Installed XHHW in a marina per the specs. Conduit and wire are completly under water when tide is in and when tide goes out conduits stay full because of the 90's. My question is when the code refers to wet locations to what extreme is wet. In my situation are my conductors in a wet location or are they concidered underwater. Also is XHHW rated for the continuous underwater enviroment?

Thanks Jay
Click to expand...

Article 100-Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.


It is definitely a wet location.

According to the UL White Book
X= Cross-linked synthetic polymer insulation
HH= 90*C
W= Moisture resistant

XHHW — Indicates a single conductor with the same description as Type XHH, except that it is rated 90?C dry,
75?C wet.
(XHH — Indicates a single conductor having a cross-linked synthetic polymer insulation with no overall covering
provided, rated 90?C dry.)

XHHW is rated for use in a wet location.

Welcome to the forum!!!!
 
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djt227 said:
Installed XHHW in a marina per the specs. Conduit and wire are completly under water when tide is in and when tide goes out conduits stay full because of the 90's. My question is when the code refers to wet locations to what extreme is wet. In my situation are my conductors in a wet location or are they concidered underwater. Also is XHHW rated for the continuous underwater enviroment?

Thanks Jay
Click to expand...

This does not qualify as a wet location. This application is submerged which does not covered by the NEC. IMO the Code and the NEMA industry standards cover this area inadequately although NEMA enclosure classifications go into more detail. NEC seem to relied on outsdie agencies to develop engineering criterias, yet it is not formalized, eg. NEC start using a word and UL or NEMA steps up to the plate and develop the engineering criteria what conditions are damp, wet, immersed and submerged. That wasy it would be easy to go to one document and answer your question with asking you to specify the length of submersion, the depth of submersion and the chemical characteristics of the liquid in question(acidity, alkaline etc.). Then the answer would be unambigous. Hopefuly.:)
 
Wet Location???? you make the call

Wet Location???? you make the call

ARTICLE 555 Marinas and Boatyards

555.13 Wiring Methods and Installation.

(A) Wiring Methods.

(1) General. Wiring methods of Chapter 3 shall be permitted where identified for use in wet locations.


HMMMMMMMM???????Well what do you think:rolleyes:
 
ibew441dc said:
ARTICLE 555 Marinas and Boatyards

555.13 Wiring Methods and Installation.

(A) Wiring Methods.

(1) General. Wiring methods of Chapter 3 shall be permitted where identified for use in wet locations.


HMMMMMMMM???????Well what do you think:rolleyes:
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I think that the NEC presumes that all the installation is ABOVE the water line: (Italics are my comments.)
_________________________________________

555.2 Definitions.
Electrical Datum Plane.​
​
​
The electrical datum plane is defined as follows:
(1) In land areas subject to tidal fluctuation, the electrical datum plane is a horizontal plane 606 mm (2 ft) above the highest tide level for the area occurring under normal circumstances, that is, highest high tide.
(2) In land areas not subject to tidal fluctuation, the electrical datum plane is a horizontal plane 606 mm (2 ft) above the highest water level for the area occurring under normal circumstances.
(3) The electrical datum plane for floating piers and landing stages that are (a) installed to permit rise and fall response to water level, without lateral movement, and (b) that are so equipped that they can rise to the datum plane established for (1) or (2), is a horizontal plane
762 mm (30 in.) above the water level at the floating pier or landing stage and a minimum of 305 mm (12 in.) above the level of the deck.

.............................​
555.9 Electrical Connections. ​
​
Electrical connections shall be located at least 305 mm (12 in.) above the deck of a floating pier. Conductor splices, within approved junction boxes, utilizing sealed wire connector systems listed and identified for submersion shall be permitted where located above the waterline but below the electrical datum field for floating piers.
All electrical connections shall be located at least 305 mm (12 in.) above the deck of a fixed pier but not below the electrical datum plane. (Some clarity here, even though they do not define what submersion means. It seem to me that if they require identification for submersion here, wehre the conenctors are NOT expected to be actually submerged, they would require suitability and identification for submersion where the portions of the wiring is actually submerged.)
.............................​

(3) Wiring Over and Under Navigable Water. ​
​
​
Wiring over and under navigable water shall be subject to approval by the authority having jurisdiction. (This is where the ambiguity comes in.)​

.............................
 
weressl said:
(3) Wiring Over and Under Navigable Water.
Wiring over and under navigable water shall be subject to approval by the authority having jurisdiction. (This is where the ambiguity comes in.)
.............................
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​
​
​
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I have always assumed that that rule has to do with boat traffic and not electrical issues. The FPN talks about warning signs that may be required for an installation over or under navigable water.
​
 
555.9Electrical connections shall be located at least 305 mm (12 in.) above the deck of a floating pier. Conductor splices, within approved junction boxes, utilizing sealed wire connector systems listed and identified for submersion shall be permitted where located above the waterline but below the electrical datum field for floating piers.
All electrical connections shall be located at least 305 mm (12 in.) above the deck of a fixed pier but not below the electrical datum plane.

This rule restricts the locations of "Electrical connections" not the wiring methods used to get to them.
ARTICLE 555 Marinas and Boatyards
555.13 Wiring Methods and Installation.
(A) Wiring Methods.
(1) General. Wiring methods of Chapter 3 shall be permitted where identified for use in wet locations.

(example)
344(A)(1)....... Galvanized Steel and Stainless Steel RMC. Galvanized steel and stainless steel RMC shall be permitted under all atmospheric conditions and occupancies.
310.8(C) Wet Locations. Insulated conductors and cables used in wet locations shall comply with one of the following:
(1)Be moisture-impervious metal-sheathed
(2)Be types MTW, RHW, RHW-2, TW, THW, THW-2, THHW, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, ZW
(3)Be of a type listed for use in wet locations
 
ibew441dc said:
555.9Electrical connections shall be located at least 305 mm (12 in.) above the deck of a floating pier. Conductor splices, within approved junction boxes, utilizing sealed wire connector systems listed and identified for submersion shall be permitted where located above the waterline but below the electrical datum field for floating piers.
All electrical connections shall be located at least 305 mm (12 in.) above the deck of a fixed pier but not below the electrical datum plane.

This rule restricts the locations of "Electrical connections" not the wiring methods used to get to them.
ARTICLE 555 Marinas and Boatyards
555.13 Wiring Methods and Installation.
(A) Wiring Methods.
(1) General. Wiring methods of Chapter 3 shall be permitted where identified for use in wet locations.

(example)
344(A)(1)....... Galvanized Steel and Stainless Steel RMC. Galvanized steel and stainless steel RMC shall be permitted under all atmospheric conditions and occupancies.
310.8(C) Wet Locations. Insulated conductors and cables used in wet locations shall comply with one of the following:
(1)Be moisture-impervious metal-sheathed
(2)Be types MTW, RHW, RHW-2, TW, THW, THW-2, THHW, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, ZW
(3)Be of a type listed for use in wet locations
Click to expand...

Submerged is not in the atmosphere, by definition.
 
weressl said:
Don,

So is your understanding that 'under navigable water' does not meant to mean underwater or submerged?
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Laszlo,
No...it is most certainly under water, but I though you were saying this rule applies to the wiring method used. It is my opinion that it has nothing to do with the wiring method used, and only reason for the rule is for the protection of the wiring method from damage by the water traffic. The AHJ referenced in the section would be the Coast Guard, or the Army Corp of Engineers. I don't see any ambiguity.

However I do agree with you that submerged is not really the same as wet and the code does not do a good job with submerged applications. I don't see any of the common wire insulations shown as suitable for submerged applications in the UL White book or the manufacturer's specs.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Laszlo,
No...it is most certainly under water, but I though you were saying this rule applies to the wiring method used. It is my opinion that it has nothing to do with the wiring method used, and only reason for the rule is for the protection of the wiring method from damage by the water traffic. The AHJ referenced in the section would be the Coast Guard, or the Army Corp of Engineers. I don't see any ambiguity.

However I do agree with you that submerged is not really the same as wet and the code does not do a good job with submerged applications. I don't see any of the common wire insulations shown as suitable for submerged applications in the UL White book or the manufacturer's specs.
Click to expand...

Don,

So why does the NEC address' submerged installation at all with 'under' when they provide no guidance to what and how to install at that location? They don't offer distinction how navigable water and 'other' waters and in what area do they claim authority and what area falls under other authorities jurisdiction. I am still confused......:confused:
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I don't see any of the common wire insulation's shown as suitable for submerged applications in the UL White book or the manufacturer's specs.
Click to expand...

In the UL White Book-WIRE AND CABLE MARKING TABLES 1, 2, AND 3
 Every single conductor with the suffix w is also rated for submersible pump use.


The following, I agree are not as common, but then again this is a special occupancy. (I have no point to the following other than there is some interesting uses of the word wet and its application.)
PORTABLE POWER CABLE (QPMU) correlated with 555.13.(a)(2)
This category covers portable power cable constructed and Listed for use
in accordance with Article 400 of ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical
Code’’ (NEC)...........
..........The term ‘‘wet’’ indicates that the cable is
acceptable for immersion in water.

MARINA AND BOATYARD CABLE(PDYQ) correlated with555.13.(a)(2)
USE
This category covers cable intended for use as flexible branch circuit
and feeder wiring in marinas and boatyards in accordance with Article
555 of ANSI/NFPA 70, ‘‘National Electrical Code.’’
The cable is rated 600 V, 75?C and is suitable for exposure to sunlight,
fresh water, salt water, gasoline, diesel fuel and lubricating oil.
 
weressl said:
Submerged is not in the atmosphere, by definition.
Click to expand...


I love it!!!!!!!:grin: I think your right about that one......To be honest I always considered all atmospheric conditions to mean pretty much any where on the planet.:wink:


But as a rebuttal.........it says all atmospheric conditions and occupancy's
555 is a special occupancy :grin:

Continuing honesty.....I don't know where I stand on this one anymore. Also I do not have much experience wit Marinas or Boat yards. I agree that the wording and intent can get mixed up in regard to a wet location.

But this is not me selling out ........because the way it stands I still think it is a wet location.......

Along the same conversation though.........and after further review.........conductors rated with a w are also submersable pump rated...the real problem would be the conduit method.............
 
Cow said:
The only difference between this and underground conduits that stay filled with water is the saltwater.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily...............we were pulling mice(mandrels) through a conduit one time and the water shot out hitting me all over the place.........along with dirt, glue, an ?....it definitely tasted like salt was in there:grin:
 
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