What amp?

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Pierre C Belarge said:
Larry and e57 have the correct answer.
210.11(C)(1)-(C)(3) require a mimimum total of 4 circuits.
One general lighting circuit is also required.
The minimum number of circuits without knowing any details is 5.
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I noticed you didn't cite a referencefor the one required lighting circuit. :roll:

Without any details, mind you, how is one [additional circuit] required???

In defense of my position, note 220.14(J)(1) where the circuit required by 210.11(C)(3), the bathroom circuit, is included in the general lighting calculation. 20A at 120V is 2400VA. At 3VA/ft?, the living area would have to exceed 800 ft? before another circuit would be required.
 
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Smart $ said:
I noticed you didn't cite a referencefor the one required lighting circuit. :roll:

Without any details, mind you, how is one [additional circuit] required???

In defense of my position, note 220.14(J)(1) where the circuit required by 210.11(C)(3), the bathroom circuit, is included in the general lighting calculation. 20A at 120V is 2400VA. At 3VA/ft?, the living area would have to exceed 800 ft? before another circuit would be required.
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The bath circuit is limited in what it serves... One bath w/ lighting, or multiple baths without lighting.... The 2 SA circuits can have no other outlets.... Nor can the laundry... What does one serve the rest of the building with... You need at least one... So I will site 210.52(A) as it requires recepticals - so you have to give them at least one circuit.

IMO you can't really use the sq' to come up with the rest of the circuits, since if you have all switched outlets "no additional load calculations are required" so you could feed the rest with just that one... However, you still need to size the service for the sq' - at the very least.... If you connected the lighting - you would in the very least have to size the circuit(s) for that lighting....
 
Smart $ said:
Aw, c'mon... gotta let me push the envelope once and a while... :mad:

(Otherwise, LOL :D)
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OK.... :D
Recessed can... They do make a powered version...
450px-JapaneseSquatToilet.jpg
 
I agree with the 5. aren't you required to have an outside receptacle ? since it can't go on the other ckts -> 5 ?
 
e57 said:
The bath circuit is limited in what it serves... One bath w/ lighting, or multiple baths without lighting.... The 2 SA circuits can have no other outlets.... Nor can the laundry... What does one serve the rest of the building with... You need at least one... So I will site 210.52(A) as it requires recepticals - so you have to give them at least one circuit.

IMO you can't really use the sq' to come up with the rest of the circuits, since if you have all switched outlets "no additional load calculations are required" so you could feed the rest with just that one... However, you still need to size the service for the sq' - at the very least.... If you connected the lighting - you would in the very least have to size the circuit(s) for that lighting....
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I'm not contesting the logic that at least one general lighting circuit will likely be necessary... but that is not the same as required.

Imagine for a second, however unlikely?with extra emphasis?a one-room dwelling (less than 800 ft?) where the bath facilities are exposed to the room, i.e. no permanent divider or wall. Now imagine a single lighting fixture for the entire interior over the bathing facilities powered by the bathroom circuit. Surrealistic, yes... but not totally impossible.

In summary, and as you touched on, even where more than one general lighting circuit is calculated, under the NEC we only have to make spaces in the panel available for the calculated number of circuits. The code does not require lighting be installed. The actual branch circuits installed only have to serve the connected load. If there are no lighting fixtures, no branch circuits are required to be installed. See the last sentence of 210.11(B).
 
Smart $ said:
Granted you will likely need at least one general lighting circuit, but that is based on square footage or connected load, whichever is greater. Those, my friend, are details... and Pierre said with no details :D Ok, good point.

Doesn't matter whether you have a laundry [room or area] or not... the circuit for such is required.
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Even if I do my ironing in the kitchen? :roll: Strange rule, I will revisit that art. I was remembering an exclusion like.....Unless laundry facilities are available elsewhere in the premesis... (something like that)

So, you can put this laundry ckt anywhere you want to satisfy this, Bedroom, hallway, bathroom? :confused:
 
S'mise said:
Even if I do my ironing in the kitchen? :roll: Strange rule, I will revisit that art. I was remembering an exclusion like.....Unless laundry facilities are available elsewhere in the premesis... (something like that)
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Applys to apartment buildings and similar with a common laundry room 210.52(F)
So, you can put this laundry ckt anywhere you want to satisfy this, Bedroom, hallway, bathroom? :confused:
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This could be fun because I don't see anything that says the circut has to be installed where the washer is to be placed.
 
S'mise said:
Even if I do my ironing in the kitchen? :roll: Strange rule, I will revisit that art. I was remembering an exclusion like.....Unless laundry facilities are available elsewhere in the premesis... (something like that)

So, you can put this laundry ckt anywhere you want to satisfy this, Bedroom, hallway, bathroom? :confused:
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ActionDave said:
Applys to apartment buildings and similar with a common laundry room 210.52(F)

This could be fun because I don't see anything that says the circut has to be installed where the washer is to be placed.[
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The exceptions to 210.52(F) make installation of the laundry receptacle conditional. Those conditions which permit it not to be installed in the dwelling are considered details... so we're back to the question as posed, "If there are no details, ..."

Otherwise...
210.25(C) Appliance Receptacle Outlets. Appliance receptacle
outlets installed in a dwelling unit for specific appliances,
such as laundry equipment, shall be installed within 1.8 m
(6 ft) of the intended location of the appliance.
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S'mise said:
I follow you untill...


Every habitable room
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Code requires the general lighting load be calculated and everything up to and including panelboards to make available power to serve such load... but there is no requirement to provide branch circuits for lighting loads which do not exist.

Say your calculated load requires 10 ? 15A branch circuits in a panelboard. You only have to make 10 spaces available for those circuits... you do not have to install them. Of course installing none is the extreme and only being discussed as part of exercizing Pierre's question. On the realistic side and continuing with the example, what if your connected [actual] general lighting load only required 6 circuits, but to allow for future loads on existing circuits you put them on 8 circuits. To be code compliant you must provide space in the panelboard for at least two more such circuits (8 + 2 = 10)... but you do not have to install them.
 
LarryFine said:
One could argue that such a house would not be habitable. ;)
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You never heard of candles? Again, nothing in the NEC requires a house to get electricity at all. I saw an episode of one of those "first time home buyers" shows, in which the couple looking to buy their first house had been living together, for the previous two years, in a tent! So how many circuits would the NEC require in that dwelling, as a minimum? :roll::)
 
I'm in agreement. My point is not how the lighting is calculated to determin ckts, but rather the fact that Lighting is Required
 
e57 said:
2ea. SA
1 Laundry (If applicable)
1 Bath
1 GP recept and lighting circuit.
5 is the dead NEC min. and an unhappy consumer.
The real min. is no call-backs or court fees... ;)
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e57,

Say, this is a 100 sq.ft. house,
(there is a website for constructing such a house!)
and NO Laundry Room,
Then where does the Laundry Circuit go?

If the circuit does not 'go' anywhere,
then what does the NEC say about it?

Would that make the minimum to be 4 circuits?

Just read a new post. Someone did cover this consideration.

But, what does the NEC literally say?
 
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S'mise said:
I'm in agreement. My point is not how the lighting is calculated to determin ckts, but rather the fact that Lighting is Required
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Generally speaking, lighting outlets are required by the NEC, not actual illumination

Required lighting is a building code issue.

Roger
 
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nakulak said:
I agree with the 5. aren't you required to have an outside receptacle ? since it can't go on the other ckts -> 5 ?
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That would require a detail on the dwelling. Not all dwellings require outside receptacles.

I was wondering about a range, or stove of some sort. Is that not standard equipment in a dwelling?
 
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roger said:
Generally speaking, lighting outlets are required by the NEC, not actual illumination

Required lighting is a building code issue.

Roger
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I'm aware that the NEC requires such to be calculated and adequate power to serve such load, i.e. general lighting, but where does it require lighting outlets be installed?

(...other than the bathroom circuit being used for a lighting outlet.)
 
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