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480sparky said:
Read it again:

210.25 Branch Circuits in Buildings with More Than One Occupancy.
(A) Dwelling Unit Branch Circuits. Branch circuits in each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that dwelling unit or loads associated only with that dwelling unit.

A circuit for unit A can be run through unit B. It's presence is not prohibited. It can supply only loads in unit A.
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Read it again, this way:

210.25 Branch Circuits in Buildings with More Than One Occupancy.
(A) Dwelling Unit Branch Circuits. Branch circuits in each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that dwelling unit or loads associated only with that dwelling unit.

A branch circuit for A which is run through unit B, is IN dwelling unit B and supplying loads WITHIN dwelling unit A. That is prohibited by the plain language of the code.

If the intent was to prohibit a branch circuit from supplying loads in different dwelling units at the same time, it would have said that. But that is not how it is written. I think the intent was to avoid having to enter one dwelling unit in order to open branch breakers for another dwelling. But the language also prohibits the circuiting (not just the branch breaker) from being in a dwelling unit for which it does not supply loads.
 
david luchini said:
Read it again, this way:
A branch circuit for A which is run through unit B, is IN dwelling unit B and supplying loads WITHIN dwelling unit A. That is prohibited by the plain language of the code.
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A branch circuit for unit A can only supply loads in unit A. It clearly states that. It cannot supply any loads in unit B. That still does not prohibit it's presence in unit B. I can run it through unit B, unit C, unit D, unit E, all over the building if I want. I just cannot supply any loads in those other units.

You're reading way too much into it.
 
480sparky said:
A branch circuit for unit A can only supply loads in unit A. It clearly states that. It cannot supply any loads in unit B. That still does not prohibit it's presence in unit B. I can run it through unit B, unit C, unit D, unit E, all over the building if I want. I just cannot supply any loads in those other units.

You're reading way too much into it.
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I'm not reading anything "into" it. I'm reading it plainly. It says a branch circuit IN a dwelling unit shall only supply loads WITHIN that dwelling unit.

It does NOT say that a branch circuit supply loads within one dwelling unit shall not supply loads within another dwelling unit. That would be different, but that is not what it says. You are reading something which is not there.

It says that if there is a branch circuit in unit B, it cannot supply loads within another dwelling unit, it shall supply only loads within (or associated only with) that dwelling unit that it is in. That would prohibit a circuit from being IN one dwelling unit and supply loads WITHIN another dwelling unit.
 
david luchini said:
..........
It says that if there is a branch circuit in unit B, it cannot supply loads within another dwelling unit, it shall supply only loads within (or associated only with) that dwelling unit that it is in. That would prohibit a circuit from being IN one dwelling unit and supply loads WITHIN another dwelling unit.
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No, it simply prohibits you from supplying a load in another unit. it doesn't state it cannot run through the other unit.
 
Since it also says "... or associated with ...", one could conceivably have a load in unit B that is associated with unit A, and should be powered from unit A.
 
480sparky said:
No, it simply prohibits you from supplying a load in another unit. it doesn't state it cannot run through the other unit.
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Well what would be the point of running a circuit through one dwelling unit, into another dwelling unit and NOT supplying a load?

The branch circuit IN one dwelling unit is not allowed to supply a load in another dwelling unit. If you run a circuit through one unit and provide outlets in another unit, you'd be perfectly fine, right up until the time you put load on the circuit. Then you'd be violating 210.25. You'd have branch circuiting in one dwelling unit supplying load in another dwelling unit.

Who would want a branch circuit in their dwelling unit that they can't put any load on?
 
david luchini said:
Well what would be the point of running a circuit through one dwelling unit, into another dwelling unit and NOT supplying a load?
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The circuit doesn't originate inside that unit. IE, the panel is on the outside of the duplex, on the other end. Or there is a room in the basement of a 30-unit apartment building where all the panels are located.

david luchini said:
The branch circuit IN one dwelling unit is not allowed to supply a load in another dwelling unit. If you run a circuit through one unit and provide outlets in another unit, you'd be perfectly fine, right up until the time you put load on the circuit. Then you'd be violating 210.25. You'd have branch circuiting in one dwelling unit supplying load in another dwelling unit.
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That's what I've been saying.:cool:

david luchini said:
Who would want a branch circuit in their dwelling unit that they can't put any load on?
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It should never even be a possibility, because it would not be accepted by the inspector.
 
480sparky said:
The circuit doesn't originate inside that unit. IE, the panel is on the outside of the duplex, on the other end. Or there is a room in the basement of a 30-unit apartment building where all the panels are located.
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There is nothing in 210.25 that says branch circuits "originating" in each dwelling unit. It only says "In" each dwelling unit.

Look, if 210.25 said Branch circuits "originating" in each dwelling unit.... or if it said Branch circuit "breakers" in each dwelling unit... or if it said branch circuits shall supply load in "only one" dwelling unit..., then your point would be valid. But it doesn't, it says "branch circuits" in each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that dwelling unit...

"Branch Circuits" is the circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).
So substitute "circuit conductors" for "branch circuit" and read 210.25 again. There is nothing about where the branch circuit originates, or about where the OCPD needs to be located. Only that the (branch) circuit conductors that are in each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that dwelling unit. If the (branch) circuit conductors run through units B, C & D to get to receptacle outlets in A, then the conductors are in units A, B, C & D. But the conductors in B are decidedly not supplying loads only within B, and the conductors in C are not supplying loads only within C, etc.
 
480sparky said:
Fine. Now put a meter stack outside the building and make it pass.
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Easy, from the meter stack I run a feeder to a load center each individual dwelling unit. I could run all the feeders below a slab and up to each unit. I could run all the feeders in a crawl space. Or if I wanted to, I could run all of the feeders through dwelling unit A on their way to the other units. I wouldn't be violating 210.25.
 
david luchini said:
Easy, from the meter stack I run a feeder to a load center each individual dwelling unit. I could run all the feeders below a slab and up to each unit. I could run all the feeders in a crawl space. Or if I wanted to, I could run all of the feeders through dwelling unit A on their way to the other units. I wouldn't be violating 210.25.
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You would if you substitute your words 'circuit conductors'.
 
480sparky said:
You would if you substitute your words 'circuit conductors'.
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No, I wouldn't. 210.25 applies to "branch circuits" in buildings with more than one occupancy. 210.25(A) applies to "dwelling unit branch circuits."

Feeder "circuit conductors" would not be affected by 210.25, even if you substitute the words as I suggest.
 
david luchini said:
No, I wouldn't. 210.25 applies to "branch circuits" in buildings with more than one occupancy. 210.25(A) applies to "dwelling unit branch circuits."

Feeder "circuit conductors" would not be affected by 210.25, even if you substitute the words as I suggest.
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Why not? They're 'circuit conductors', aren't they?
 
480sparky said:
Why not? They're 'circuit conductors', aren't they?
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They're not a "branch circuit" are they?

Branch Circuit: The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

A feeder is not a branch circuit, so nothing in Article 210 "Branch Circuits" (and specifically 210.25) would apply to a feeder. (Unless you want to get picky and refer to the two FPNs in 210 which direct you to 215 for Feeders.)

And yes, nothing I see in 210.25 would prohibit you from running a "feeder" from a panel in unit A, through unit B and lets say outside to a condensing unit. As long as the branch OCPD was at the CU, making the circuit a feeder and not a branch circuit.
 
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I thinks I see the error of my ways.

From definition in 100 and from 210.25(A)
Once I pass through the final OCPD then I can pass through common areas but not other dwelling units. Strangely, I do not have to provide separate panels as long as the panel is in a common area.

From 210.25(B)
I have to provide a separate panel for the common area circuits.
 
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