What constitutes a wall?

Merry Christmas
Status
Not open for further replies.
dlhoule

dlhoule

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Upstairs loft, balcony, landing....whatever you want to call it. Where railing runs into wall/sloped ceiling..wall is approximately 15" high before ceiling starts. Landing is 8' wide before starting down a hall. The wall running perpendicular to the 15" high wall to start of hallway is 30" wide.
Do I need a receptacle in wall (?) that is 15" high? :?:
 
Ceiling sloping into 15" high wall constitutes wallspace in my opinion. If location is loft or balcony, it would require receptacle outlets as in any other similar room mentioned in 210.52(A). If resembles a hallway, the receptacle outlet required as per 210.52(H).
 
That is an odd situation, and a good question. From reading 210.52, I can't see any way out of it. I even looked up the word "wall" in a dictionary, and could not find a way out. But it makes no sense to have a receptacle there, since the owner would have to crawl on hands and knees to plug something in.

By the way, I'm a bit confused by your description. Are you saying that the 15" high "wall" is 8 feet wide? Can you draw a picture?
 
As I read the OP, I'm understanding this:

WhatIsAWall.jpg
 
If unbroken at the floor line by openings ,built ins etc. It must be spaced as any other wall would be spaced.Railings, fixed glass panels all must meet this requirement no matter what the height.
 
Charlie, if you don't get picture from following description. I'll try to post photo later.

You walk up stairs with railing on right hand side. At top of stairs you are facing wall/ceiling with railing continuing on over to the wall/ceiling. To your left is hallway. There is a railing to your left with about 4' to get to the wall where hallway begins. You are now on a landing/balcony or whatever you want to call it. Landing is 8' wide with stairway cut out of it. The wall I said earlier was 30" wide is actually 28' wide with hall cut into it 30" from 15" high wall.

Looking at it from the hall: as you enter landing the wall of hall is 30" from 15" high wall to your left, with the railing 8' in front of you.

I agree with your assessment of wall definition and am hoping local AHJ will allow me to skip this required outlet. I would put one in floor or on railing except no good way to get them there. That portion of landing is over kitchen which has tongue and groove planking for ceiling on top of pretty nice looking laminated beams.

Thanks for the response and for listening.
 
Larry,

Your second description says I drew the mirror image, I think. The view is with my back to the 4' railing going from the stair to the hall, no?

What is the length of the railing from the 15" high kneewall to the top of the stair, measured along the floor line?

I would argue that part of the area at the immediate top of the stair is the aisle, or hall, about 3' wide, and that 3' would be deducted from the length of the railing coming from the 15" high kneewall. I'm guessing that distance along the railing will be less than 6', pushing the first outlet into the kneewall.
 
Thinking on your description just a little further, I think you have 13 feet of wall.
 
Al, you have it with the mirror image idea. I am going from memory right now but I think it is about 8 1/2' of railing from top of stairs to 15" wall.

What are you thinking of in terms of 13' of wall?
 
8?' of railing, OK.

What I'm thinking is, if the hall is 3' wide, then knock 3' off the 8?' for 5?'.

So, 5?' (railing) + 8' (15" hi wall) + 2?' (return wall to hall) = 16'.

I amend my guess of 13' to 16'.
 
How about this: Call it a "hallway." Say that this second floor area has two hallways: one straight in front of you, as you walk up the stairs, and the other to your left (or to the right, in Al's sketch). Do not call it by any of the room names that are listed in 210.52(A). Thus, the explanation of "wall space," as given in 210.52(A)(2), does not apply.

What does apply, then, is 210.52(H). However, since this particular "hallway" is not more than 10 feet in length, 210.52(H) does not require a receptacle at all. If you want, and I think it's a good idea, presuming you can do this easily, is to put one receptacle on the 30 inch wide wall, near the "other hallway."
 
Dam Charlie, Why can't you be an inspector in my area?

Al, actually the hall is 4' wide but you have the right idea.

So, Charlie, this area approx 8' x 8' is a hall with another 4' hall running perpendicular to the stairs and another 4' hall running parrallel to the stairs to get to other area that is approx 8' x 8'. No problem wiring in that area though.

Did I mention that the ceiling and 15" wall are SIPs.

And many thanks for the replies. :D
 
dlhoule said:
Damn Charlie, Why can't you be an inspector in my area?
Click to expand...
To much like work, for my tastes. :lol:

dlhoule said:
Did I mention that the ceiling and 15" wall are SIPs.
Click to expand...
I'm fairly sure you hadn't, because if you had, I would have asked earlier what a SIP might be. :?:
 
Close Al, at least here they are known as Structural Insulated Panels.

By the way I stopped and checked measurements. The 15" wall will only be 13 !/2" after flooring is installed. It is 42" from short wall to opening for hall, and stairway starts down 9' 8" from short wall. I have an outlet roughed in about 30" from short wall by entry to hall.

I'll be talking to inspector tomorrow. I'll let you know what he says.

By the way Charlie, I would think that with all your knowledge and imagination doing an inspectors job would be a snap for you.
:D
 
Picture an ice cream sandwich, only replace the ice cream with styrofoam, and the chocolate with OSB panels. That's a SIP wall, usually a foot deep.

I'm thinking that convincing an AHJ that the space is a hallway would be an uphill battle. I could see the space putting a computer to use, or whatever. I envision a hallway going somewhere. :D

If you think it's worth the effort, the AHJ is going to be the one with the answer to this predicament. If getting the inspector out is a chore, I'd get the receptacle in and forget about it. Given the SIP wall, and the nature of the space, I'd slap a floor outlet in there. It'd probably look less goofy, and the utilization equipment would not likely be against the wall in this instance anyway. (Yes, I see the irony in what I'm implying.) :D
 
I'd slap a floor outlet in there,

Well George would you surface mount in on the floor or have it exposed to the kitchen ceiling?

If inspector insists, I'll leave it up to the home owner, and I'll recommend wire mold along the wall to the outlet.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top