What do you guys do... (rant alert)

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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
... when you encounter an inspector who doesn't comprehend how electricity works and who wants to fail your inspection because of something he does not understand? Is it my job to teach him how to do his? What if he stubbornly refuses to learn despite all the tact I can muster in trying to teach him? Why do AHJs hire these guys? Is it because they work cheap because they are too incompetent to survive in the private sector?

Heavy sigh. End rant.
 
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I guess it depends entirely on what your rant is about. If it's something trivial I would just get over it. Nobody's perfect including inspectors and the important thing is to get past them. They don't have any value added to your equation so what you want to do is reduce the negative impact on your productivity from having to deal with them. Even the ones that know what they're doing don't have any value added for you. On the whole you gain nothing from dealing with them so your best bet is to reduce the waste of time and money associated with having to deal with them.

If this means you have to do something because the guy has a mild quirk it is probably better to just do it rather than to argue over it. If you're right you will eventually win the argument but you may spend a bunch more in your time than it's worth.

This is no different than dealing with police or other bureaucrats. Do what you have to do to limit your exposure to how much of your time they waste.
 
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I guess I would need some specifics. I enforce the Code everyday and I'm not sure "how electricity works" comes into play often.
I will deffinitely agree that inspectors need some 1st hand experience as a journeyman to fully appreciate the challenges you encounter.
 
It is not your jb to teach the inspector. All you can do is show them the code section and if he still fights you then go over his head. I have actually had to go to the state engineer who is the authority having jurisdiction for the state. His office can give a formal interpretation especially in areas where the code is in a gray area.
 
ggunn said:
... when you encounter an inspector who doesn't comprehend how electricity works and who wants to fail your inspection because of something he does not understand? Is it my job to teach him how to do his? What if he stubbornly refuses to learn despite all the tact I can muster in trying to teach him? Why do AHJs hire these guys? Is it because they work cheap because they are too incompetent to survive in the private sector?

Heavy sigh. End rant.
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It's not your job to teach him but teaching may end up being easier (or cheaper) than doing it his way. When in doubt go over his head.
 
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Frustrating.
I do this:
1. Realize they have the power.

2. Takes two to tango. He sounds uneducated. But maybe you were a bit impatient?
Listen first - so he feels heard. Let him say what he thinks, no matter how crazy it sounds. Let him get it all out of his system.

3. Say, " I hear what you are saying. I can see where you are coming from. If I understand you correctly, you................
< paraphrase what he said back to him. No sarcasm. This can work wonders. He now knows you understand what he wants.>
...............Do I have that right?"
Continue, "Do you mind if I explain how I understand it? Please let me know afterward if I can clarify any point I made, or where you disagree. I am certainly open to your input and expertise. I'd like to find the best solution."
This clarifies that you dont just want it YOUR way or HIS way - but the best way. One would assume this is what they want also.

4. If still an issue, ask for Code reference.
Without making him feel inferior or his judgement/intelligence called into question.

5. Now......If he says "You are gonna do it, cuz I SAID so!" (this happened to me once)
Explain, "Oh no. This inspection is over. We live in a free society. I need to be dealt with respect."

6. If bad enough, and you can afford to, never work in that area again. It just f$$&^ing ruins your day!
( I have eliminated one city from my business, due to an extremely negative encounter with the local AHJ. It feels good.
Any time I get a call from there, I make it clear to the customer how difficult their AHJ was. As citizens of that AHJ they can effect change.)
 
Everyone has a supervisor for a reason. Don't hesitate to climb the food chain.

Kowtowing to incorrect calls sets a bad precedent, even if complying is cheap.
 
LarryFine said:
Everyone has a supervisor for a reason. Don't hesitate to climb the food chain.
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I hear you Larry, and I know people say this a lot, but it's easier said than done. I suspect in most cases, a chief electrical inspector will side with his guy most of the time if he can find a way. I mean they work together, and it's a morale thing, it's just the way it is. Practically, it can be difficult to get in touch with the chief Electrical inspector. I tried several times recently, because I wanted some official department code interpretations. he never got back to me.
 
electrofelon said:
I hear you Larry, and I know people say this a lot, but it's easier said than done. I suspect in most cases, a chief electrical inspector will side with his guy most of the time if he can find a way. I mean they work together, and it's a morale thing, it's just the way it is. Practically, it can be difficult to get in touch with the chief Electrical inspector. I tried several times recently, because I wanted some official department code interpretations. he never got back to me.
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I happen to know my two main head electrical inspectors (Richmond and Henrico) because I've had enough cause to have face-to-face discussions over the years. I'm polite, tactful, and respectful, but I'm also stubborn when I'm sure I'm right.

In all, I have "formally challenged" a fail four times in my career, and prevailed each and every time. I'm never adversarial, and I approach disagreements with the attitude that we share the same goal of a safe and compliant installation.

The most recent one was when I changed a 200a service to 320/400 for a 4x40a tankless water heater. I ran SE instead of SER from a new 200a disco to a new main-lug panel (sub-panel, actually, by virtue of having the main disco outside) .

The inspector failed me for having no neutral, because he never heard of a panel not having one. He called the boss, who backed him up, and I said I will follow up if necessary, not backing down. The boss called back and said I was right.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It is not your jb to teach the inspector. All you can do is show them the code section and if he still fights you then go over his head. I have actually had to go to the state engineer who is the authority having jurisdiction for the state. His office can give a formal interpretation especially in areas where the code is in a gray area.
Click to expand...
Which may or may not solve the problem. I had a state inspector want the service bond on the LOAD side of a service rated ground fault transferswitch. The local inspector had never seen one before, so he called in the state inspector. Could not get it through his head that bonding on the load side defeats the ground fault protection of the main breaker. He also wanted a separate poco transformer for the fire pump. Yeah, get with the poco and let me know which bridge they told you to jump off of! LOL!
 
I had a real tough inspector once. Lead inspector showed up....... and chewed out the inspector in front of me, "What are you still doing here! Sign the man's permit, and let's go!"
 
I deal with nothing but incompetent inspectors and a building department in NYC. They are the absolute worst agency on the planet. The only place in the country where expediters are a billion dollar business

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk
 
I have had a mix over the years, some that really knew their stuff, and if you installed by code, you had no issues. Others that make up their own code because that’s the way they would have done it, or thought it should be done. Others that have admitted they didn’t know what they were looking at, but said it looked good. Some that didn’t even look at it, and just signed the card. Just like our industry, there is good and bad.
 
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Thanks for all your advice and commiseration and I apologize for the rant. I am always respectful and polite when I speak with the guy in question, but there have been times in the past when he could not give me a code reference, just "I don't like it and I think it's dangerous". I can't go over his head because he has no technical oversight; his supervisor is a really nice guy, but he's a bureaucrat with no technical training or experience, so he always sides with his guy.

As far as "the way electricity works" he once failed me for placing a load side tap at a subpanel because he insisted that current from the OCPD at the utility end of the feeder could add to the current from the PV at the tap and thereby overload the feeder, and he was not talking about the part of the feeder between the tap and the subpanel.

I certainly agree with the "choose your battles" advice, but the latest case blindsided me after the system was built and will be expensive to ameliorate, although it would have been really cheap to satisfy him if I had known he was going to pull this when I designed the system.

But yeah, I know. Things are tough all over. :D
 
Recently I had an inspector cite me a 300.11 for securing some MC to a piece of EMT. The EMT was not a raceway, and was used exclusively as a "running board" to secure the MC. I pointed out that it was "just a piece of pipe" and his response was "is emt listed as a support for MC?". Then I came back with "it doesn't have to be" then he said, "we require all Electrical products to be listed" (which actually is in the state amendments).

I was going to try and appeal this to the head Electrical inspector, but I decided not to because this guy was a jerk and I was worried about retaliation.
 
electrofelon said:
Recently I had an inspector cite me a 300.11 for securing some MC to a piece of EMT. The EMT was not a raceway, and was used exclusively as a "running board" to secure the MC. I pointed out that it was "just a piece of pipe" and his response was "is emt listed as a support for MC?". Then I came back with "it doesn't have to be" then he said, "we require all Electrical products to be listed" (which actually is in the state amendments).

I was going to try and appeal this to the head Electrical inspector, but I decided not to because this guy was a jerk and I was worried about retaliation.
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I feel your pain. A piece of EMT without conductors in it isn't electrical equipment. Are rafters in an attic listed as electrical equipment?
 
a few years ago I received a violation for an undersized EGC wire. I sent the inspector table 250.122 from Article 250 as proof that it was sized correctly based on the breaker size. His email response, and i remember it word for word because it was so shocking: "I don't care what the code says, and i don't care what you say!!!" I was in shock, and my Project Manager couldn't help but just laugh. So the client had to pay extra money for the additional work to replace the ground wire.
 
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