What is the definition of a rough inspection?

[jaylectricity]

Doing a rehab on a house where most of the work is old-work. Thanks to the plumber (no really, I'm glad he needed some walls opened up) there are a few open sections of walls and the floor of the upstairs bathroom.

So I ran a bunch of wires, made up the boxes on the open walls, made the box-shaped cut on some of the existing walls, and poked wires through a hole in the wall in other locations. I even installed some of the old-work boxes and made them up so I could give a couple of switches for some temporary lighting.

The inspector comes for the rough inspection and calls me right away. Says I need to have all the old-work boxes in with the grounds and splices made up for the inspection.

I say, "I could have made them up, installed devices and plates and you wouldn't be able to inspect that anyway." Then he says, "Well if you can, you're supposed to install new-work recessed lights." Which I normally agree with, but in this case, a new work can wouldn't be able to be extended far enough down, so I figured it would be better to just have the sheetrocker cover the ceiling with 3/8ths as planned, then cut them out afterward. I had cut open the bay for each light location. We're talking strapping, wood lathe, steel mesh and plaster that was at least an inch thick altogether.

So he says, "The code doesn't say 'do it this way unless it's really hard'". Again, I agree, I could have cut the bays open further, installed enough wood to install a new work can sit flush after the 3/8ths sheetrock. But, come on.

The whole time, I was respectful about it. I said things like, "I understand where you're coming from, but look at what I'm working with there." I didn't say, but should have, "You can see how I make up my new work boxes, and you can even see how I plan to install my old-work boxes, do you think I'm going to do something different for the wires hanging out of holes in the wall?"

I did say, "All I want to know is if they can close up those walls. You can come back and look at the other stuff if you want to." He says, "They can close up the walls." Then he hung up on me. And also he signed the card for the rough.

So that's the backstory that leads to my question. What is the definition of a rough inspection? I always thought it was to inspect the wiring of the open walls to clear them to be insulated and sheetrocked.

What do you guys think?

 

[Strathead]

Doing a rehab on a house where most of the work is old-work. Thanks to the plumber (no really, I'm glad he needed some walls opened up) there are a few open sections of walls and the floor of the upstairs bathroom.

So I ran a bunch of wires, made up the boxes on the open walls, made the box-shaped cut on some of the existing walls, and poked wires through a hole in the wall in other locations. I even installed some of the old-work boxes and made them up so I could give a couple of switches for some temporary lighting.

The inspector comes for the rough inspection and calls me right away. Says I need to have all the old-work boxes in with the grounds and splices made up for the inspection.

I say, "I could have made them up, installed devices and plates and you wouldn't be able to inspect that anyway." Then he says, "Well if you can, you're supposed to install new-work recessed lights." Which I normally agree with, but in this case, a new work can wouldn't be able to be extended far enough down, so I figured it would be better to just have the sheetrocker cover the ceiling with 3/8ths as planned, then cut them out afterward. I had cut open the bay for each light location. We're talking strapping, wood lathe, steel mesh and plaster that was at least an inch thick altogether.

So he says, "The code doesn't say 'do it this way unless it's really hard'". Again, I agree, I could have cut the bays open further, installed enough wood to install a new work can sit flush after the 3/8ths sheetrock. But, come on.

The whole time, I was respectful about it. I said things like, "I understand where you're coming from, but look at what I'm working with there." I didn't say, but should have, "You can see how I make up my new work boxes, and you can even see how I plan to install my old-work boxes, do you think I'm going to do something different for the wires hanging out of holes in the wall?"

I did say, "All I want to know is if they can close up those walls. You can come back and look at the other stuff if you want to." He says, "They can close up the walls." Then he hung up on me. And also he signed the card for the rough.

So that's the backstory that leads to my question. What is the definition of a rough inspection? I always thought it was to inspect the wiring of the open walls to clear them to be insulated and sheetrocked.

What do you guys think?

I think it is whatever the inspector wants it to be. I have worked in dozens of different jurisdictions and each one has its own views. Realizing that no inspector looks at every nuance of the installation, each one is going to have his pet peeves and areas that he/she focuses on.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is no definition but imo if the ceiling is being covered with 3/8" sheetrock then you should cut the sheetrock install a standard new work can and extend it down 7/8".

I also would expect the boxes to be installed but not the devices. In one area around here you have to install the boxes and wires and come back and install the devices. This sucks because on small jobs it demands an extra trip for the contractor.

I thionk it is fair to say that splices should be made and boxes installed on a rough where ever possible

 

[Strathead]

There is no definition but imo if the ceiling is being covered with 3/8" sheetrock then you should cut the sheetrock install a standard new work can and extend it down 7/8".

I also would expect the boxes to be installed but not the devices. In one area around here you have to install the boxes and wires and come back and install the devices. This sucks because on small jobs it demands an extra trip for the contractor.

I thionk it is fair to say that splices should be made and boxes installed on a rough where ever possible

That is the policy for the city my shop is in. The problem is that when we have a job that is a conduit and wire, (no MC or Romex) they require wire in the boxes and the grounds made up, even when you aren't going for a ceiling inspection. That is problematic. We are struggling to get out of the walls, we aren't even thinking about running the conduits above the acoustical ceiling.

 

[JFletcher]

Doing a rehab on a house where most of the work is old-work. Thanks to the plumber (no really, I'm glad he needed some walls opened up) there are a few open sections of walls and the floor of the upstairs bathroom.

So I ran a bunch of wires, made up the boxes on the open walls, made the box-shaped cut on some of the existing walls, and poked wires through a hole in the wall in other locations. I even installed some of the old-work boxes and made them up so I could give a couple of switches for some temporary lighting.

The inspector comes for the rough inspection and calls me right away. Says I need to have all the old-work boxes in with the grounds and splices made up for the inspection.

I say, "I could have made them up, installed devices and plates and you wouldn't be able to inspect that anyway." Then he says, "Well if you can, you're supposed to install new-work recessed lights." Which I normally agree with, but in this case, a new work can wouldn't be able to be extended far enough down, so I figured it would be better to just have the sheetrocker cover the ceiling with 3/8ths as planned, then cut them out afterward. I had cut open the bay for each light location. We're talking strapping, wood lathe, steel mesh and plaster that was at least an inch thick altogether.

So he says, "The code doesn't say 'do it this way unless it's really hard'". Again, I agree, I could have cut the bays open further, installed enough wood to install a new work can sit flush after the 3/8ths sheetrock. But, come on.

The whole time, I was respectful about it. I said things like, "I understand where you're coming from, but look at what I'm working with there." I didn't say, but should have, "You can see how I make up my new work boxes, and you can even see how I plan to install my old-work boxes, do you think I'm going to do something different for the wires hanging out of holes in the wall?"

I did say, "All I want to know is if they can close up those walls. You can come back and look at the other stuff if you want to." He says, "They can close up the walls." Then he hung up on me. And also he signed the card for the rough.

So that's the backstory that leads to my question. What is the definition of a rough inspection? I always thought it was to inspect the wiring of the open walls to clear them to be insulated and sheetrocked.

What do you guys think?

The bolded part is pretty much what's expected here as well. YOU know your work, he doesnt, and there is no guarantee (to the inspector) that YOU will be doing the missing boxes, grounds, etc.

 

[chadnodine]

IMO, rough inspection means that everything required to be installed prior to permanently covering up walls, ceilings, etc. This includes pigtails for grounds and bonding. In some cases for larger projects typically commercial I have asked for a partial if needed. Murphy's Law often applies.


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[growler]

That is the policy for the city my shop is in. The problem is that when we have a job that is a conduit and wire, (no MC or Romex) they require wire in the boxes and the grounds made up, even when you aren't going for a ceiling inspection. That is problematic. We are struggling to get out of the walls, we aren't even thinking about running the conduits above the acoustical ceiling.

For commercial work where conduit is used it's common practice to just call for a wall cover inspection. Many times this wall cover inspection will be only for a certain area of a big job. They will not expect wire pulled or anything in the ceiling.

You can call just for a wall cover on old work residential if it's something that will hold up the entire job and this is an area that will be covered.

 

[growler]

The inspector comes for the rough inspection and calls me right away. Says I need to have all the old-work boxes in with the grounds and splices made up for the inspection. "All I want to know is if they can close up those walls. You can come back and look at the other stuff if you want to."

You should have called for a wall cover inspection and then when you have all boxes in and made up you can call for a rough inspection.

 

[Strathead]

For commercial work where conduit is used it's common practice to just call for a wall cover inspection. Many times this wall cover inspection will be only for a certain area of a big job. They will not expect wire pulled or anything in the ceiling.

You can call just for a wall cover on old work residential if it's something that will hold up the entire job and this is an area that will be covered.

You speak with such authority. I can call for an inspection every single day of a 1 year project, but I will irritate the inspector and the GC along with probably getting a bill for excessive inspections. The goal is to call ONLY when you have to and my point was that that is different everywhere you go. You responded to me and you sounded like you are lecturing me on what I should be doing. I have been doing this for a year or two from one coast to the other, so I have a pretty good idea. I am telling you right now, in my area, our inspector has a fit if he comes out for a rough wall inspection or a "partial rough wall inspection" and the grounds aren't pulled and made up in the boxes.

 

[JohnE]

In MA, the law simply reads: "Electrical installations shall not be concealed or covered from view until inspected by the inspector of wires within and not more than 24 hours for exterior excavations nor more than72 hours for interior installations after proper notice to the inspector". So there is no definition of "rough inspection". Best practice IMO would be to consult the inspector prior to requesting inspection to see what exactly he will want to see. What I may want to see may be drastically different from the guy in the town next door. Personally I don't need to see your grounds made up or the boxes without the devices in old work.

 

[growler]

You speak with such authority. I can call for an inspection every single day of a 1 year project, but I will irritate the inspector and the GC along with probably getting a bill for excessive inspections.

Why should this irritate the GC ? He is normally the one that wants to cover the walls as soon as posible?

When the inspector gets there I explain that they are ready to hang the sheet rock and it can't be covered without inspection. Doing this I have gotten a wall cover for walls that haven't even been built yet.

I never said you should get an inspection every day of the year but there are times when you can't wait for the whole building to be roughed in before getting an inspection.

 

[jaylectricity]

There is no definition but imo if the ceiling is being covered with 3/8" sheetrock then you should cut the sheetrock install a standard new work can and extend it down 7/8".

I also would expect the boxes to be installed but not the devices. In one area around here you have to install the boxes and wires and come back and install the devices. This sucks because on small jobs it demands an extra trip for the contractor.

I thionk it is fair to say that splices should be made and boxes installed on a rough where ever possible

My original plan was to install new work cans, but the ones I use don't even extend 7/8" down, and I needed more like 1.25" because the condition the ceiling is in. I would have liked for them to just rip the whole ceiling down.

As for the other, the inspector wanted to penalize me for fishing wires that I could have just left dangling in the basement.

If a customer asks me to install one receptacle in a certain location and I'm going to be fishing in the wire, I'm not required to fish the wire, install an old-work box, then call for a rough inspection, then install the device, then call for a final inspection.

On this job, every box that was installed had all the wires in it, all the grounds and splices made up.

 

[Strathead]

Why should this irritate the GC ? He is normally the one that wants to cover the walls as soon as posible?

When the inspector gets there I explain that they are ready to hang the sheet rock and it can't be covered without inspection. Doing this I have gotten a wall cover for walls that haven't even been built yet.

I never said you should get an inspection every day of the year but there are times when you can't wait for the whole building to be roughed in before getting an inspection.

What irritates me is that you write as if your way is the only way. The RIGHT way. There are just about any many different ways as there are inspectors.

 

[kwired]

You speak with such authority. I can call for an inspection every single day of a 1 year project, but I will irritate the inspector and the GC along with probably getting a bill for excessive inspections. The goal is to call ONLY when you have to and my point was that that is different everywhere you go. You responded to me and you sounded like you are lecturing me on what I should be doing. I have been doing this for a year or two from one coast to the other, so I have a pretty good idea. I am telling you right now, in my area, our inspector has a fit if he comes out for a rough wall inspection or a "partial rough wall inspection" and the grounds aren't pulled and made up in the boxes.

What irritates me is that you write as if your way is the only way. The RIGHT way. There are just about any many different ways as there are inspectors.

And this is where you need to know the laws in the jurisdiction you are working in. Just because an inspector wants things done his way doesn't mean that is what the rules actually are. Now if it is a jurisdiction with only one inspector - good luck, those places he is getting his way nearly all the time.

 

[growler]

I have been doing this for a year or two from one coast to the other, so I have a pretty good idea. I am telling you right now, in my area, our inspector has a fit if he comes out for a rough wall inspection or a "partial rough wall inspection" and the grounds aren't pulled and made up in the boxes.

What irritates me is that you write as if your way is the only way. The RIGHT way. There are just about any many different ways as there are inspectors.

First off I'm sorry to have irritated you.

What I'm saying is that you may not be useing the correct terminology. If you ask for a rough wall inspection the inspector could/maybe would expect to have the wire pulled and at least the grounds made for inspection.

Now if you call for a wall cover inspection (let them know what you are wanting) the only thing that needs checked is conduit, boxes and strapping. The inspector can give permission to close up walls because he has inspected the work that will in future be hidden from view. Back when we could still talk directly to inspectors I have gotten this type of permission over the phone.

A wall cover is not a rough inspection.

I have not worked from coast to coast but I have been in a few states and communication with the inspectors is the most important thing. I can say that with some authority no matter who you are dealing with.

If you get an inspector that refuses to comes out or give permission for a wall cover then you just explain this fact to the GC.

 

[kwired]

First off I'm sorry to have irritated you.

What I'm saying is that you may not be useing the correct terminology. If you ask for a rough wall inspection the inspector could/maybe would expect to have the wire pulled and at least the grounds made for inspection.

Now if you call for a wall cover inspection (let them know what you are wanting) the only thing that needs checked is conduit, boxes and strapping. The inspector can give permission to close up walls because he has inspected the work that will in future be hidden from view. Back when we could still talk directly to inspectors I have gotten this type of permission over the phone.

A wall cover is not a rough inspection.

I have not worked from coast to coast but I have been in a few states and communication with the inspectors is the most important thing. I can say that with some authority no matter who you are dealing with.

If you get an inspector that refuses to comes out or give permission for a wall cover then you just explain this fact to the GC.

We have rough in inspections and final inspections. Any particular project may have multiple rough in inspections but usually only one final inspection.

If the project is entirely exposed work there is no rough in inspection.

Inspection of underground wiring before backfilling is part of rough inspections.

Unless I am working in a area with an inspector I am not familiar with I can generally get by without asking for a rough in on an occasional wall here and there - especially if there isn't all that much in there to look at. I never call for a rough in on trenches - unless maybe it is involving an inspector I am not familiar with. Some of the sandy soil areas I commonly work in they will need to be there to watch me install it, or it will cave in before they ever get there to look at it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

What is the definition of a rough inspection? I always thought it was to inspect the wiring of the open walls to clear them to be insulated and sheetrocked.

The State of Minnesota electrical inspection department has a handout / PDF that they offer that includes this statement:

All wiring including underground cable and conduit shall be inspected before it is concealed by insulation, sheet-rock, paneling, or other materials. Except for the final connection to switches, receptacles, and lighting fixtures, all ground wires and other wires in boxes must be spliced and pigtailed for the rough-in inspection.

Unlike most of the statements in the handout, this one is not referenced to a Code citation. I take it as the definition, by the State, of "roughin".

 

[Strathead]

The State of Minnesota electrical inspection department has a handout / PDF that they offer that includes this statement:


Unlike most of the statements in the handout, this one is not referenced to a Code citation. I take it as the definition, by the State, of "roughin".

That is what they do here. What do you guys do when you are running conduit and you only have time to get the conduit stubbed up in to the future acoustical ceiling before the want a rough in inspection? This is common when there are full height walls. They need to get them done to start the T-bar. It really sucks to have to put a box on that is secured to something to pull 20 feet of wire in a conduit when you didn't intend to. Also offering an unneeded splice for future failure.

 

[kwired]

The State of Minnesota electrical inspection department has a handout / PDF that they offer that includes this statement:


Unlike most of the statements in the handout, this one is not referenced to a Code citation. I take it as the definition, by the State, of "roughin".

I sort of understand the want to see the connections in switch and outlet boxes but as is worded kind of looks like an underground conduit run would need to have conductor pulled in it at the rough inspection.

How do they inspect lines that were plowed in or horizontally bored without being there at installation, and even then you can't always verify how deep the line may be below the surface

 

[al hildenbrand]

What do you guys do when you are running conduit and you only have time to get the conduit stubbed up in to the future acoustical ceiling before the want a rough in inspection?

You are asking about commercial. The opening post is about residential.

Here, you pay for every single inspection trip. If the scale of the commercial work warrants a wall close inspection, sure.