What qualifies the qualifier? Electrical Safety Training/NFPA 70E

[Ekmast]

What qualifications should an electrical safety trainer have to certify and train someone as a "qualified person"?

 

[Rick 0920]

I'm not sure, just shooting from the hip. To teach construction safety, I would want someone with both OSHA 500 and CHST certifications. For electrical safety, I would want them to have the two certs listed above plus at least a journeyman electrician license.

 

[petersonra]

I think people are worried way too much about whether someone has a piece of paper or not. The reality is that the piece of paper does not mean the person knows anything or that he is capable of teaching what he does know to someone else.

 

[Rick 0920]

I think people are worried way too much about whether someone has a piece of paper or not. The reality is that the piece of paper does not mean the person knows anything or that he is capable of teaching what he does know to someone else.

But we are more likely to interview those who have certifications than those who have not. For example, I know of several non-licensed electrical mechanics that are more capable than many licensed journeyman. But we tend to lean toward those individuals who have invested a little more in their trade to obtain licenses and certifications.

 

[petersonra]

But we are more likely to interview those who have certifications than those who have not. For example, I know of several non-licensed electrical mechanics that are more capable than many licensed journeyman. But we tend to lean toward those individuals who have invested a little more in their trade to obtain licenses and certifications.

My personal opinion is that licenses and certifications should not be considered in the hiring process. They are way to easy to get for people who are good at getting such things.

Better to have a skills test. Make them show they actually know what they claim.

For instance, I am shocked at the number of good construction electricians who are completely mystified when looking at simple control schematics.

 

[ramsy]

But we tend to lean toward those individuals who have invested a little more in their trade to obtain licenses and certifications.

Case precedent for qualified persons follows the Mississippi Supreme Court schooling AHJ's in getting indemnity from Owner-Builder's before issuing permits.

 

[ramsy]

My personal opinion is that licenses and certifications should not be considered in the hiring process. They are way to easy to get for people who are good at getting such things.

Better to have a skills test. Make them show they actually know what they claim.

For instance, I am shocked at the number of good construction electricians who are completely mystified when looking at simple control schematics.

Employers use several methods to avoid skilled labor costs, and since CEO bonuses depend on cost cutting, unskilled entry levels are one tool in that quiver, which often apprentice under veteran employees, who were over-compensated by prior management and forced to retire in short order.

Individuals who invest a few months in a comprehensive State specific licensing program will survey the industry sectors in their trade, including schematics, business, and law, such as duration employers shall store documentation from whistle blowers, showing apprentices blew up the building, among other things.

In my State shredding starts after 3 years, and one of my clients runs 2 shredding trucks 80 hours a week, wants for nothing, with a superior disposition on life and mental health for the whole family, burning evidence of the daily dealings of corporate scum.

When paying for experts, or specialization thru comparative advantage becomes a vulnerability, less survivable between cost-cutting CEO's, licensing is one adaptation for portability between market sectors, getting promoted to a desk job, or your next level of incompetence.

 

[Rick 0920]

Employers use several methods to avoid skilled labor costs, and since CEO bonuses depend on cost cutting, unskilled entry levels are one tool in that quiver, which often apprentice under veteran employees, who were over-compensated by prior management and forced to retire in short order.

Individuals who invest a few months in a comprehensive State specific licensing program will survey the industry sectors in their trade, including schematics, business, and law, such as duration employers shall store documentation from whistle blowers, showing apprentices blew up the building, among other things.

In my State shredding starts after 3 years, and one of my clients runs 2 shredding trucks 80 hours a week, wants for nothing, with a superior disposition on life and mental health for the whole family, burning evidence of the daily dealings of corporate scum.

When paying for experts, or specialization thru comparative advantage becomes a vulnerability, less survivable between cost-cutting CEO's, licensing is one adaptation for portability between market sectors, getting promoted to a desk job, or your next level of incompetence.

When I lived in Oklahoma, they had a 1:2 ratio of journeyman to apprentices. Their was a reason to get your card and you could command more money. You didn't have to be good, but the need for licensed electricians was there. Licenses to our trade are like college degrees to others. While the process of hiring is not perfect, there are many high-paying jobs that require certain degrees. It's been like that for many years. If it were that wrong, they wouldn't use that thought process any longer.

 

[Rick 0920]

I think people are worried way too much about whether someone has a piece of paper or not. The reality is that the piece of paper does not mean the person knows anything or that he is capable of teaching what he does know to someone else.

Unfortunately in the society that we live in, those silly pieces of paper are required to start businesses, get higher paying jobs, becoming a doctor, nurse or specialist. It's like getting a guarantee in a box. Those pieces of paper give the general public the power to receive damages when something has been done faulty. You can sue the 4th year apprentice that you hired for pennies on the dollar instead of someone who is licensed, bonded and insured. But most courts will fine the apprentice for contracting without a license and then tell you hopefully you learned your lesson.

 

[Elect117]

I think the goal of licensing is good by its nature but they haven't made meaningful advancements and they lack enforcement. The goal is to protect those who need the work from being taken advantage of. Do the laws do that? We can argue that all day. But the goal is a good one. Like lemon laws, engineering and contractor laws can ensure that the person they hire will be able to do the work competently and to building codes/standards. And if they don't, there are boards designed to issue punishment.

One of my biggest gripes is "design groups" which are not permitted to provide plans unless they are licensed in that trade, Architect, or engineer.
The number of "design groups" I get plans from that are in complete disarray and lack a minimum understanding of electrical theory and safety is too high in recent years.

But to the main subject, it would depend on what kind of safety training it was. If someone wants to be a safety or instructional role then I would expect them to get certifications for it. I would expect OSHA at a minimum. I would also ask about what groups or conferences they attend regularly. Most of those certifications require continuing education credits and ensures knowledge of the evolving technologies and rules. Conferences for groups within that expertise also help with gaining knowledge on safety equipment and methodologies used elsewhere. I would also expect that person to understand the trade enough for those they train to even want to listen to them. Basically everything Rick said.

 

[ramsy]

When I lived in Oklahoma, they had a 1:2 ratio of journeyman to apprentices. Their was a reason to get your card and you could command more money. You didn't have to be good, but the need for licensed electricians was there. Licenses to our trade are like college degrees to others. While the process of hiring is not perfect, there are many high-paying jobs that require certain degrees. It's been like that for many years. If it were that wrong, they wouldn't use that thought process any longer.

In many states, the journeyman card with its' certified apprentice programs, are just more regulations that never apply to General Contractors, who underbid everybody with laborers granted the right to work by state labor boards.

In states that don't adopt "Right to Work" legislation, laborers can't be prosecuted for seeking employment with operators found unlawful.

When injured laborers are found, employers avoid back payment of Workman's Comp. & Unemployment compensation, thru bankruptcy, changing corporate names, and continuing business as usual.

Handymen & remodel hacks without employees on record are sole operators, or self-employed persons, also exempt from journeymen cards. Municipal police bear the entire burden of enforcing permits for food trucks, portable food cart vendors, cleaning up off-ramp beggars, homeless encampments, along with handymen permit violations, since it would be an impossible task for the State.

Prevailing wages may be enforceable with public works projects, or where organized labor recruits, and absorbs whistle blowers to prosecute rivals, but non compliance is rampant, and best described as voluntary, since lacking enforcement in the private sector.

The end result is, if journeymen cards or licensing are more attractive to employers, it wont prove their Defacto regulatory compliance, or their Desire to surrender authority over existing management practice.

 

[Rick 0920]

In many states, the journeyman card with its' certified apprentice programs, are just more regulations that never apply to General Contractors, who underbid everybody with laborers granted the right to work by state labor boards.

In states that don't adopt "Right to Work" legislation, laborers can't be prosecuted for seeking employment with operators found unlawful.

When injured laborers are found, employers avoid back payment of Workman's Comp. & Unemployment compensation, thru bankruptcy, changing corporate names, and continuing business as usual.

Handymen & remodel hacks without employees on record are sole operators, or self-employed persons, also exempt from journeymen cards. Municipal police bear the entire burden of enforcing permits for food trucks, portable food cart vendors, cleaning up off-ramp beggars, homeless encampments, along with handymen permit violations, since it would be an impossible task for the State.

Prevailing wages may be enforceable with public works projects, or where organized labor recruits, and absorbs whistle blowers to prosecute rivals, but non compliance is rampant, and best described as voluntary, since lacking enforcement in the private sector.

The end result is, if journeymen cards or licensing are more attractive to employers, it wont prove their Defacto regulatory compliance, or their Desire to surrender authority over existing management practice.

I agree with everything you say. But us ethical contractors charge a fair price for our services and choose to play by the rules. It's gives us a much better nights sleep.