Working without a license

[karn]

A friend of mine, who I have considered to be a real good electrician, who has worked with me for about 10 years (and no longer does) now works for a car dealership, this car dealership wants to install some receptacles outdoors in the lot on some pedestals,, the dealership has a 5000$ estimate from a local electrician and my friend is telling me he can buy all the material for under 1000$, he is wanting to tell the GM he can do this for the company to save them money, and they can just continue to pay him his hourly wage, it would involve running a conduit from an existing panel to the pedestals which would have an enclosure with a couple breakers and receptacles, hes wanting to know if there's any codes against him installing these as hes not a licenced electrician

 

[480sparky]

The NEC doesn't mandate any licensing. That's the responsibility of the AHJ. Such questions would be best directed towards them.

 

[GoldDigger]

What is the jurisdiction where the work will be done?
Industrial and property owner exemptions vary greatly. The work will almost certainly require a permit.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[karn]

I was wondering if it could fall more under a building maintenance catagory

 

[480sparky]

That's still the AHJ's call.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I seriously doubt he can do the work without a license unless he works in an area where no license is required.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I was wondering if it could fall more under a building maintenance catagory

That job that is described is not maintenance, IMO.

 

[paulengr]

Licensing generally kicks in as a business license. So if you are selling your services as a contractor that’s one thing. The laws are designed to protect “the public”. If you have your own staff though and they are doing work on your property as employees that’s a little different because they aren’t offering their services to the public. It’s a private business. Still some states are more overly zealous than others.

Second as far as permits go that’s another matter. It gets into a constitutional issue (a taking) so they have to issue permits to property owners and they can’t technically stop you from working on your property for the same reason. They start treading on private vs public property rights.

Industrial plants in particular are essentially permanently and continuously under construction. You still have to meet Code and it should be inspected in theory but almost none of this work ever is inspected by a local Code inspector. If they do the conflicts quickly escalate out of hand. Like requiring ADA compliance in a facility that has specific physical job requirements on all employees in order to escape in an emergency chemical release incident. This is the opposite of commercial and residential work where the vast majority of work is licensed, permitted, and inspected. Also all federal properties and most state and municipal is exempted in many cases. They also often exempt themselves from silly regulations like NEC compliance! Again it’s state specific.

 

[480sparky]

I kinda wonder why you're involved in this? He doesn't work with you any more, the plant doesn't appear to want to hire you..... so......... why are you asking? Sounds like they/he wants your blessing.

 

[karn]

I kinda wonder why you're involved in this? He doesn't work with you any more, the plant doesn't appear to want to hire you..... so......... why are you asking? Sounds like they/he wants your blessing.

He just asked if I knew if he could legally do the work or not, I didnt know for sure and that's why I asked,, when giving advice I try to be as helpful and accurate as I can

 

[Hv&Lv]

He just asked if I knew if he could legally do the work or not, I didnt know for sure and that's why I asked,, when giving advice I try to be as helpful and accurate as I can

You say he used to work for you about 10 years?
IMO you should know your states laws pretty well if your licensed yourself and shouldn’t have to ask.

kinda harsh, but in my state and area I know that isn’t non licensed work.

 

[tom baker]

Washington allows the full time employee of property owner to do electrical work, but permits and inspections are still required.
My advice to your friend would be to pull a permit.

 

[ramsy]

Licensing generally kicks in as a business license. So if you are selling your services as a contractor that’s one thing. The laws are designed to protect “the public”. If you have your own staff though and they are doing work on your property as employees that’s a little different because they aren’t offering their services to the public. It’s a private business. Still some states are more overly zealous than others.

Second as far as permits go that’s another matter. It gets into a constitutional issue (a taking) so they have to issue permits to property owners and they can’t technically stop you from working on your property for the same reason. They start treading on private vs public property rights.

Industrial plants in particular are essentially permanently and continuously under construction. You still have to meet Code and it should be inspected in theory but almost none of this work ever is inspected by a local Code inspector. If they do the conflicts quickly escalate out of hand. Like requiring ADA compliance in a facility that has specific physical job requirements on all employees in order to escape in an emergency chemical release incident. This is the opposite of commercial and residential work where the vast majority of work is licensed, permitted, and inspected. Also all federal properties and most state and municipal is exempted in many cases. They also often exempt themselves from silly regulations like NEC compliance! Again it’s state specific.

Nice summary. If the car wash is private commercial property and subject to any municipal permits, employees may be used where local jurisdictions allow Owner-Builder permits. In the last 10 years, the owner-builder permit process has mostly become an exercise in indemnity. The owner builder releases municipality from all liability, and without a contractor's GL policy, rolls the dice on voiding the commercial-property insurances.

The insurance industry has responded by blaming owner builders for any claims by default, regardless of owner-builder permits. These owners bear the burden of proof to show qualified persons were used; some industry standard document that recognizes electrical qualifications or trade licensing.

The insurance industry has known for some time that combination & municipal inspectors struggle with NFPA-70, and can't effectively enforce this code requirement. Your inspectors may not even catch the outdoor GFCI requirements for a car wash, begging for claims when water and electricity don't mix.

After injury attorneys go after this business, property insurance litigation may only settle for peanuts, and General Liability policies may be the only coverage that pays out. Do it yourself without being additionally insured, and Bankruptcy is the only other way out of a casualty claim.

 

[ggunn]

He just asked if I knew if he could legally do the work or not, I didnt know for sure and that's why I asked,, when giving advice I try to be as helpful and accurate as I can

IMO you should advise him on who to ask rather than trying to give him an answer yourself.

 

[growler]

Washington allows the full time employee of property owner to do electrical work, but permits and inspections are still required.
My advice to your friend would be to pull a permit.

That sounds about right to me. This guy won't get into trouble because he is an hourly employee of the car dealership so he doesn't need a license because he isn't a contractor. The dealership could get into trouble for doing work without a permit and I'm sure that wouldn't make the GM happy.

His friend probably can't pull a permit but the General manager may be able to.

One thing that could come into play here is who owns this property. If it's rented then the owners would have to decide who has the right to work on their property. They may require that a licensed and insured EC do all work just to cover themselves.

 

[karn]

You say he used to work for you about 10 years?
IMO you should know your states laws pretty well if your licensed yourself and shouldn’t have to ask.

kinda harsh, but in my state and area I know that isn’t non licensed work.

I'm not licensed either, j work under my company's license

 

[Hv&Lv]

I'm not licensed either, j work under my company's license

Im sorry, I made a wrong assumption...

 

[Hv&Lv]

Washington allows the full time employee of property owner to do electrical work, but permits and inspections are still required.
My advice to your friend would be to pull a permit.

That doesn’t really make sense. So I could just hire anyone and have them do electrical work at my car dealership?


RCW 19.28.091
Licensing—Exemptions.
(1) No license under the provision of this chapter shall be required from any utility or any person, firm, partnership, corporation, or other entity employed by a utility because of work in connection with the installation, repair, or maintenance of lines, wires, apparatus, or equipment owned by or under the control of a utility and used for transmission or distribution of electricity from the source of supply to the point of contact at the premises and/or property to be supplied and service connections and meters and other apparatus or appliances used in the measurement of the consumption of electricity by the customer.
(2) No license under the provisions of this chapter shall be required from any utility because of work in connection with the installation, repair, or maintenance of the following:
(a) Lines, wires, apparatus, or equipment used in the lighting of streets, alleys, ways, or public areas or squares;
(b) Lines, wires, apparatus, or equipment owned by a commercial, industrial, or public institution customer that are an integral part of a transmission or distribution system, either overhead or underground, providing service to such customer and located outside the building or structure: PROVIDED, That a utility does not initiate the sale of services to perform such work;
(c) Lines and wires, together with ancillary apparatus, and equipment, owned by a customer that is an independent power producer who has entered into an agreement for the sale of electricity to a utility and that are used in transmitting electricity from an electrical generating unit located on premises used by such customer to the point of interconnection with the utility's system.
(3) Any person, firm, partnership, corporation, or other entity licensed under RCW 19.28.041 may enter into a contract with a utility for the performance of work under subsection (2) of this section.
(4) No license under the provisions of this chapter shall be required from any person, firm, partnership, corporation, or other entity because of the work of installing and repairing ignition or lighting systems for motor vehicles.
(5) No license under the provisions of this chapter shall be required from any person, firm, partnership, corporation, or other entity because of work in connection with the installation, repair, or maintenance of wires and equipment, and installations thereof, exempted in RCW 19.28.010.
(6) The department may by rule exempt from licensing requirements under this chapter work performed on premanufactured electric power generation equipment assemblies and control gear involving the testing, repair, modification, maintenance, or installation of components internal to the power generation equipment, the control gear, or the transfer switch.
(7) This chapter does not require an electrical contractor license if: (a) An appropriately certified electrician or a properly supervised certified electrical trainee is performing the installation, repair, or maintenance of wires and equipment for a nonprofit corporation that holds a current tax exempt status as provided under 26 U.S.C. Sec. 501(c)(3) or a nonprofit religious organization; (b) the certified electrician or certified electrical trainee is not compensated for the electrical work; and (c) the value of the electrical work does not exceed thirty thousand dollars.
(8) An entity that currently holds a valid specialty or general plumbing contractor's registration under chapter 18.27 RCW may employ a certified plumber, a certified residential plumber, or a plumber trainee meeting the requirements of chapter 18.106 RCW to perform electrical work that is incidentally, directly, and immediately appropriate to the like-in-kind replacement of a household appliance or other small household utilization equipment that requires limited electric power and limited waste and/or water connections. A plumber trainee must be supervised by a certified plumber or a certified residential plumber while performing electrical work. The electrical work is subject to the permitting and inspection requirements of this chapter.
[ 2003 c 399 § 301; 2003 c 242 § 1; 2001 c 211 § 6; 1998 c 98 § 1; 1992 c 240 § 1; 1980 c 30 § 15; 1935 c 169 § 11;RRS § 8307-11. Formerly RCW 19.28.200

 

[romex jockey]

A friend of mine, who I have considered to be a real good electrician, who has worked with me for about 10 years (and no longer does) now works for a car dealership, this car dealership wants to install some receptacles outdoors in the lot on some pedestals,, the dealership has a 5000$ estimate from a local electrician and my friend is telling me he can buy all the material for under 1000$, he is wanting to tell the GM he can do this for the company to save them money, and they can just continue to pay him his hourly wage, it would involve running a conduit from an existing panel to the pedestals which would have an enclosure with a couple breakers and receptacles, hes wanting to know if there's any codes against him installing these as hes not a licenced electrician

Licensure aside, if your 'friend' has no insurance , he's about as viable as a chicken with a kickstand

~RJ~

 

[ramsy]

I'm not licensed either, j work under my company's license

Most contractor's side-worker employees, weekend warriors, laborers, and DIY home owners are not carrying their own GL policy; not getting owner-builder permits, proof of qualified persons, trade cert, or licensing, much less business/city licensing.

This defacto practice of hiring unqualified persons only clashes with the desire of law in the court room. Owners so emboldened to challenge insurance settlements are going up against Supreme court precedent, which punishes everyone that tolerates unskilled persons that do electrical, Lowe v. Lowndes County Building Inspection Department, 760 So. 2d 711 (Miss. 2000).