Working without a license

[480sparky]

Most contractor's side-worker employees, weekend warriors, laborers, and DIY home owners are not carrying their own GL policy;........

Even those that do probably don't read the fine print that states they're not covered if they're not licensed for the work performed.

 

[ramsy]

Licensure aside, if your 'friend' has no insurance , he's about as viable as a chicken with a kickstand

~RJ~

A great many 1st generation immigrants give their lives to their work, or business, slaving 24/7 in unimaginable personal toil. But, some also bring with them an inherent motivation to avoid local governments, perhaps historically corrupt in their country of origin. I have found suggesting building permits, or qualified persons, may be highly offensive to some people. My best effort to save naive people from themselves is trying to avoid any cause for claims, disclose every discrepancy, and document when owners don't authorize requirements.

When people invest their life in their business, and make frugal short cuts with repairs, or fail to pay for honest work, anyone can sick those municipal entities upon them. For the price of a business license municipalities can discover un-permitted additions, 2nd stories, resulting in revocation of occupancy per UBC 18.90.110 (.30). Clever chickens with a kickstand, can easily become chickens with their heads cut off.

 

[tom baker]

That doesn’t really make sense. So I could just hire anyone and have them do electrical work at my car dealership?

See RCW 198.28.261 Exemptions...
A person is not required to obtain a license or be a certified electrician to do electrical work at place of residence, farm or business, and (5) (a) allows regularly employed employees to do electrical work...
This provision dates to the 1935 Session Law that established electrical licensing, 1935, Chapter 169, here is the link to all the session laws, the electrical laws did not become know as "RCWs" until they were recodified in the 1950s.

 

[tom baker]

That doesn’t really make sense. So I could just hire anyone and have them do electrical work at my car dealership?

See RCW 19.28.261, a homeowner, farmer, business, or other, does not have to be certified (WA electricians are certified) as an electrician, and (5)(a) allow regularly scheduled employees to do work on the premise of their employee.

I suspect if you as an car dealership hired a person who was an electrician to do this work our AHJ would question if he/she was regularly scheduled...
But its common for schools, hospitals, cities to have certified electricians in maint positions, but they are not required to be certified.

Similar language to 19.28.261 was first seen in the 1935 electrical laws which required inspections and permits.

 

[ramsy]

See RCW 19.28.261, a homeowner, farmer, business, or other, does not have to be certified (WA electricians are certified) as an electrician, and (5)(a) allow regularly scheduled employees to do work on the premise of their employee.

I suspect if you as an car dealership hired a person who was an electrician to do this work our AHJ would question if he/she was regularly scheduled...
But its common for schools, hospitals, cities to have certified electricians in maint positions, but they are not required to be certified.

Similar language to 19.28.261 was in the 1935 electrical laws which required inspections and permits.

Maintenance electrical, and Employees fall under NFPA–70E.

Insurance industry code-panel members modified the latest code cycle of 70E to shift liability to property owners, plant managers, and fire Marshalls, by defining them all as AHJ's.

 

[tom baker]

WA has not adopted 70E. 70E does apply to govt installations, but they are not subject to our state rules.
I have a report from WA electrical inspectors from late 1930's that mentions the "evils" of homeowners doing electrical work.
Interesting on changes to last edition of 70E. There has been some concern here from insurance companies over schools that do not have certified electricians on staff, IE use non electricians

 

[sameguy]

Depending where you are in N.Y. it's free willy anyone can do ilektrecul work.
What happens when you hurt or get hurt is an other story, as in better have good insurance.
Jobs like that require permits.

 

[romex jockey]

Similar language to 19.28.261 was first seen in the 1935 electrical laws which required inspections and permits.

FF a century to a litigant hostile society Tom

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

Maintenance electrical, and Employees fall under NFPA–70E.

Insurance industry code-panel members modified the latest code cycle of 70E to shift liability to property owners, plant managers, and fire Marshalls, by defining them all as AHJ's.

end result here is, there's more 'marketability' for unemployed &/or apprentice washouts in the ever-proliferating maintenance companies ,along with a proportional rise in 'average age of license'

~RJ~

 

[jim dungar]

Maintenance electrical, and Employees fall under NFPA–70E.

However, NFPA70E does not use the word electrician. All it requires is the person must be qualified to perform the task and protected while doing so.

 

[kwired]

A friend of mine, who I have considered to be a real good electrician, who has worked with me for about 10 years (and no longer does) now works for a car dealership, this car dealership wants to install some receptacles outdoors in the lot on some pedestals,, the dealership has a 5000$ estimate from a local electrician and my friend is telling me he can buy all the material for under 1000$, he is wanting to tell the GM he can do this for the company to save them money, and they can just continue to pay him his hourly wage, it would involve running a conduit from an existing panel to the pedestals which would have an enclosure with a couple breakers and receptacles, hes wanting to know if there's any codes against him installing these as hes not a licenced electrician

Licensing and inspections are local AHJ issues and not NEC issues.

A majority of places will not allow this person to do this work with no license. Even places where there may not be much chance of being caught, there is likely still laws that don't allow it. Large commercical or industrial may hire their own in house electricians, often they still require licensing and permits often are still required for new installations. Maintenance activity where you are replacing something with like components doesn't always require licensing or permits though.

Yes he is probably saving his employer $$ but it isn't exactly the $4000 that it might appear to be on the surface. He probably is saving some on labor expenses, but it is hourly wage that he gets paid and one must consider that fact he is not doing his usual job so whatever he normally does is potentially falling behind when doing this task so it is just shifting expenses somewhere else. Might be saving on material mark up might not, depends on how good of price he can get from suppliers. Some contractors or other high volume purchasers can sell some of those materials for same cost that non contractors can buy them for.

 

[Jraef]

As to the property owner, when someday they go to sell it, there will likely be a seller's statement saying, to the effect; "Has all work and improvements on this property been done with permits?" If they lie, they can be sued later if there is even an accident. If the dealership is a tennant and the propert owner finds out, the owner can force them to pay to have it ripped out and reinstalled with a permit.

 

[romex jockey]

As to the property owner, when someday they go to sell it, there will likely be a seller's statement saying, to the effect; "Has all work and improvements on this property been done with permits?" If they lie, they can be sued later if there is even an accident. If the dealership is a tennant and the propert owner finds out, the owner can force them to pay to have it ripped out and reinstalled with a permit.

Ah, the ever infamous HI report JR?

Yeah , it's the litigant magnet , the kicker being maybe 1/2 the state's provide some sort of benchmark for that as well

most of 'em aren't worth the paper they're written on here, and have even less insurance validity than the attending trades , in a given seller/buyer dispute

Which, of course, always focus on 'deeper pockets'


~RJ~

 

[Eddie702]

In MA all wiring requires permits. Homeowners can do their own wiring but are supposed to get a permit. Even though the law say's they can some inspectors will not issue permits to homeowners.

You can also legally run a business with just a Journeyman's license and you can have 1 and only 1 apprentice, so only 2 employees in the field.

Otherwise you need a Masters

 

[LarryFine]

Here only a business entity may become a contractor, and must employ a Master.

 

[romex jockey]

here nothing is required for single family residences

which equates to the lions share of our trades service calls, as well as insurance claims

~RJ~

 

[RAKocher]

Pennsylvania doesn't license electricians. Many years ago the county that I live and work in used to, and I did have a licence, but they discontinued licensing. Some cities and boroughs issue licenses, but I'm not so sure how much it's for the purpose of insuring knowledgeable electricians.
I have heard for years that there are localities in the state that have never adopted a NEC code cycle, but more recently I heard that the state has adopted NEC 2008.
A few months ago when having a feeder to a structure inspected, I asked what code cycle he was using, and he tilted his head back and said, "I think 2011, but I'm going to go easy on you and use 2008."

 

[petersonra]

A friend of mine, who I have considered to be a real good electrician, who has worked with me for about 10 years (and no longer does) now works for a car dealership, this car dealership wants to install some receptacles outdoors in the lot on some pedestals,, the dealership has a 5000$ estimate from a local electrician and my friend is telling me he can buy all the material for under 1000$, he is wanting to tell the GM he can do this for the company to save them money, and they can just continue to pay him his hourly wage, it would involve running a conduit from an existing panel to the pedestals which would have an enclosure with a couple breakers and receptacles, hes wanting to know if there's any codes against him installing these as hes not a licenced electrician

there are no codes that govern who can do work. the codes only cover how the work is executed.

there are laws requiring permits, inspections, and often licenses to do electrical work.

as others have mentioned, this varies from place to place.

the reality is that a lot of unpermitted and uninspected and unlicensed electrical work goes on and it is not like there are buildings burning down or exploding left and right because of the lack or permits, inspections, or licenses.

and there is plenty of shoddy work where the proper permits, inspections, and licenses were in place.

chances are he and his employer would get away with it if he went ahead.

my personal opinion is your best bet for you is to just stay out of it and not be giving him advice on such things.

 

[growler]

the reality is that a lot of unpermitted and uninspected and unlicensed electrical work goes on and it is not like there are buildings burning down or exploding left and right because of the lack or permits, inspections, or licenses.

A lot of home and business owners are afraid to get permits and have inspections because they think the authorities may discover something that will cost them lots of money.

I was called to do a kitchen in a residential basement and also a laundry room. I pulled a permit because there shouldn't be much to a kitchen and laundry room. When the inspector gets there he knows that someone had finished the basement without a permit. House was only a couple of years old and had recently been sold so he knows that it wasn't the present owner.

It's real nasty what they can make an owner do in such cases. Expose the wiring or get an engineer to sign off on the work (good luck with that one).

I talked them into just letting me change out the receptacles to T/R type and adding arc fault breakers and carbon monoxide detector (there was a bedroom), all required by code.

Other than that, the fact that a permit was pull triggered the installation of hard wired smoke detectors throughout the house as codes had changed since the building date.

Even with your best efforts it can cost quite a bit more to be legal.

There is actually a demand for trades people that will work without permits.

 

[Hv&Lv]

See RCW 19.28.261, a homeowner, farmer, business, or other, does not have to be certified (WA electricians are certified) as an electrician, and (5)(a) allow regularly scheduled employees to do work on the premise of their employee.

I suspect if you as an car dealership hired a person who was an electrician to do this work our AHJ would question if he/she was regularly scheduled...
But its common for schools, hospitals, cities to have certified electricians in maint positions, but they are not required to be certified.

Similar language to 19.28.261 was first seen in the 1935 electrical laws which required inspections and permits.

wow..
it looks like a huge liability issue for a business. I can understand a HO for farmer on his farm, but a business has the public around everywhere.

thanks for the info