What say you? 210.52D

What say you? 210.52D

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 9.7%

  • No

    Votes: 28 90.3%
  • Total voters
    31
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e57

e57

Senior Member
Location
San Francisco, CA
Friday I had an Inspector at my job, and we were talking at length about placement of vanity outlets in baths - silly young architect has problems with having the outlet visable.....

So - said Inspector - 20 years in the trade or more - but brand new as an inspector was saying something that I have not thought of, or agree with.

He was applying the 20" abaove, and 6" below the counter rules of 210.52C - to the placement of the outlet in baths required for the bath vanity for 210.52D - Calling the Bath Vanity a "Counter-top".

What say you????
 
(C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).

210.52(C) clearly is NOT referring to the bathroom, if it was it would say so.:mad: I hope you were able to educate him in the fact that he was mistaken. What City was it in ?
 
I had that problem before also, the required receptacle needs to be with 3' of the sink, end of story.

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acrwc10 said:
What City was it in ?
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SF - the new guy. I have a feeling he may have been pushing it due to the numerous e-mails from the Arch. and Designer ticking him off that he told me about when he walked up - bugging him about the subject because they want them in a drawer, or in a cabinet. Which I have already told them "NO" on this and a few other codes - but for some reason he thinks getting the answer direct from the inspector was a good idea. So when he showed at my job site he mentioned the calls and emails he has been getting - and then laid that bomb shell on me, but the way he was explaining I was almost buying it.
 
e57 said:
So when he showed at my job site he mentioned the calls and emails he has been getting - and then laid that bomb shell on me, but the way he was explaining I was almost buying it.
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I'm only wondering if he actually read that section before dropping the bomb on you.
 
He was applying the 20" abaove, and 6" below the counter rules of 210.52C - to the placement of the outlet in baths required for the bath vanity for 210.52D - Calling the Bath Vanity a "Counter-top".
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Wrong for your application. It does not apply at all to the bathroom
 
normbac said:
always thought it had to be a 20 amp :confused:
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You're correct. The 20 ampere circuit required by 210.11(C)(3) has to be a 20 ampere outlet. The duplex receptacle can be a 15-ampere, but the outlet has to be 20 ampere. :smile: The wording in the drawing is mis-leading, in that it cannot be a 15 ampere outlet.
 
wbalsam1 said:
You're correct. The 20 ampere circuit required by 210.11(C)(3) has to be a 20 ampere outlet. The duplex receptacle can be a 15-ampere, but the outlet has to be 20 ampere. :smile: The wording in the drawing is mis-leading, in that it cannot be a 15 ampere outlet.
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I agree with what you are saying. But please allow me to nit pick a nit regarding your choice of words. The thing that has to be rated for 20 amps is the "branch circuit," not the "outlet."

If you look at the wording of the Article 100 definition of "outlet," I think you will find that that word cannot be associated with a rating of any kind. In common conversational English, and in our common way of speaking within the profession, the word "outlet" is often used to describe the receptacle. It is also sometimes used to describe the 2x4 or 4x4 box into which one or more receptacles, switches, thermostats, and other devices are mounted. But it is, in the language of the NEC, nothing more than a point in space.
 
This thread points out a very common mistake among those who just read a sentence or paragraph in the Code. They need to learn how the code is structured. Few paragraphs stand alone, they are part of a long 'string' of sections.

210.52(C) deals with receptacles serving countertops, that's not in dispute. But is does not deal with receptacles serving bathroom countertops. Bathrooms are dealt with in 210.52(D).

I can't recall how many times I've dealt with someone who quotes a code section, then I ask them to 'back up' to the beginning of that section. Then I get an ".......Oh." from them.

Section NNN.NN(X)(n)(x) is part of NNN.NN(X)(n), which is a part of NNN.NN(X), which is a part of NNN.NN, which is a part of NNN, which is a part of Chapter N. As a general rule, everything in the book before NNN.NN(N)(X)(n)(x) has a bearing on that section.
 
I think the inspector misunderstood the code. Some bathrooms do not have a vanity they have pedestal sinks. 210.52 C would not apply and was not intended to apply to bathrooms.
 
charlie b said:
I agree with what you are saying. But please allow me to nit pick a nit regarding your choice of words. The thing that has to be rated for 20 amps is the "branch circuit," not the "outlet."

If you look at the wording of the Article 100 definition of "outlet," I think you will find that that word cannot be associated with a rating of any kind. In common conversational English, and in our common way of speaking within the profession, the word "outlet" is often used to describe the receptacle. It is also sometimes used to describe the 2x4 or 4x4 box into which one or more receptacles, switches, thermostats, and other devices are mounted. But it is, in the language of the NEC, nothing more than a point in space.
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I agree with what you're saying, too. But allow me to further posit this question: Is it possible to have a 15 ampere outlet on a 20 ampere circuit?
 
480sparky said:
See Table 210.24.:wink:
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As I look at this Table, I see nothing that permits a 15 ampere "outlet" (not receptacle) on a 20 ampere circuit. When I look in the 20A column and see at the bottom the reference to 210.23(A) and read that exception, I'm right back to 210.11(C)(3).:smile:
 
wbalsam1 said:
As I look at this Table, I see nothing that permits a 15 ampere "outlet" (not receptacle) on a 20 ampere circuit. When I look in the 20A column and see at the bottom the reference to 210.23(A) and read that exception, I'm right back to 210.11(C)(3).:smile:
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All receptacles are outlets.
 
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