What say you? 210.52D

What say you? 210.52D

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 9.7%

  • No

    Votes: 28 90.3%
  • Total voters
    31
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A single 15 amp receptacle cannot be supplied by a 20 amp circuit.

Multiple 15 amp receptacles can be supplied by a 20 amp circuit.
 
wbalsam1 said:
I agree with what you're saying, too. But allow me to further posit this question: Is it possible to have a 15 ampere outlet on a 20 ampere circuit?
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Only if you equivocate. :)
 
480sparky said:
It is. It's also an outlet, by Definition.
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I respectfully disagree.

A receptacle outlet is "an outlet where one or more receptacles are installed". The definition of outlet is "a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment".
A receptacle is installed at an "outlet", it's not an outlet.:smile:
 
wbalsam1 said:
But allow me to further posit this question: Is it possible to have a 15 ampere outlet on a 20 ampere circuit?
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If we are speaking in precise NEC language, no. That is because there is no such thing as "15 ampere outlet." Nor is there such a thing as a "20 amp outlet." An "outlet," as defined in the NEC, cannot have a rating, for it is just a point in space. It is not the box, nor the receptacle in the box, but rather the point at which a wire from the premises wiring system makes contact with (for example) a receptacle.

Now if you were using normal language, and if I may be allowed to speak in normal terms, and not nit-picking terms, as is my preference, :grin: and if you are asking if a receptacle outlet that has a 15 amp rating can be installed on a branch circuit that has a 20 amp rating, then several others have already (correctly) answered that question.
 
wbalsam1 said:
I respectfully disagree.

A receptacle outlet is "an outlet where one or more receptacles are installed". The definition of outlet is "a point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment".
A receptacle is installed at an "outlet", it's not an outlet.:smile:
Click to expand...

So let's say your 'utilization equipment' is the cord to a lamp. You plug the lamp into the receptacle. You are now 'taking current at a point on the wiring system to supply the utilization equipment'.

Your receptacle outlet/outlet analogy is similar to saying "All pick-ups are automobiles, but not all automobiles are pick-ups."
 
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbalsam1
I agree with what you're saying, too. But allow me to further posit this question: Is it possible to have a 15 ampere outlet on a 20 ampere circuit?


ceknight said:
Only if you equivocate. :)
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Not suggesting I have more than one interpretation...or trying to mislead....this is an honest question. :smile:
 
The EI is simply wrong...


(C) Countertops.
In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units,...

(D) Bathrooms.
In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within...
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That's all there is to it.
 
480sparky said:
So let's say your 'utilization equipment' is the cord to a lamp. You plug the lamp into the receptacle. You are now 'taking current at a point on the wiring system to supply the utilization equipment'.

Your receptacle outlet/outlet analogy is similar to saying "All pick-ups are automobiles, but not all automobiles are pick-ups."
Click to expand...

All the lamps in my home are "plugged" into receptacle devices that are connected to outlets on 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits. I do not have any 15 ampere outlets on 20 ampere circuits, but I have a lot of 15 ampere receptacles on 20 ampere circuits. :smile:
 
480sparky said:
So let's say your 'utilization equipment' is the cord to a lamp. You plug the lamp into the receptacle. You are now 'taking current at a point on the wiring system to supply the utilization equipment'.
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From this perspective, the "point" is internal to the receptacle, and the receptacle is included as part of the "premises wiring system." I have no problem with this interpretation.

But let us do keep our various languages in their respective places. We all speak at least two, with one of those being the language of the profession. In common conversational English (the "other language," for many of us), I think it is acceptable to use the word "outlet" to describe the receptacle, or the box into which it is installed, or both. It is not often that we encounter a need to be more precise than that.
 
wbalsam1 said:
All the lamps in my home are "plugged" into receptacle devices that are connected to outlets on 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits. I do not have any 15 ampere outlets on 20 ampere circuits, but I have a lot of 15 ampere receptacles on 20 ampere circuits. :smile:
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And I don't drive an automobile.... I drive a pick-up. :wink:
 
wbalsam1 said:
I do not have any 15 ampere outlets on 20 ampere circuits, but I have a lot of 15 ampere receptacles on 20 ampere circuits. :smile:
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You have not yet responded to the two statements I have made, to the effect that an "outlet" cannot have a current rating. So in what context are you using the phrase "15 ampere outlet"? What do you mean by that phrase? Surely you are not saying that a 2x4 metal (or plastic) box can be purchased with a 15 amp rating, or with a 20 amp rating? :confused:
 
wbalsam1 said:
Not suggesting I have more than one interpretation...or trying to mislead....this is an honest question. :smile:
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Oh, I don't doubt that for a second. My response was the answer to your honest question. :)
 
charlie b said:
You have not yet responded to the two statements I have made, to the effect that an "outlet" cannot have a current rating. So in what context are you using the phrase "15 ampere outlet"? What do you mean by that phrase? Surely you are not saying that a 2x4 metal (or plastic) box can be purchased with a 15 amp rating, or with a 20 amp rating? :confused:
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I do not intermix the terms "receptacle" with "outlet", I use the term "receptacle outlet".
As far as a response to your statement that "outlets" are not defined with a current rating, I, of course, agree. So based on that, my earlier question having to do with a current rating of 15 being assigned to a 20 ampere branch circuit is on it's face a defective question. I'm only trying (very hard at this point) to maintain the idea that if a branch circuit is assigned a maximum ocpd of 20 amperes, a point on this circuit where current is taken is not protected at 15, but rather 20 amps. Do you agree?
 
charlie b said:
I agree with what you are saying. But please allow me to nit pick a nit regarding your choice of words. The thing that has to be rated for 20 amps is the "branch circuit," not the "outlet."

If you look at the wording of the Article 100 definition of "outlet," I think you will find that that word cannot be associated with a rating of any kind. In common conversational English, and in our common way of speaking within the profession, the word "outlet" is often used to describe the receptacle. It is also sometimes used to describe the 2x4 or 4x4 box into which one or more receptacles, switches, thermostats, and other devices are mounted. But it is, in the language of the NEC, nothing more than a point in space.
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Charlie I agree.
 
480sparky said:
This thread points out a very common mistake among those who just read a sentence or paragraph in the Code. They need to learn how the code is structured. Few paragraphs stand alone, they are part of a long 'string' of sections.

210.52(C) deals with receptacles serving countertops, that's not in dispute. But is does not deal with receptacles serving bathroom countertops. Bathrooms are dealt with in 210.52(D).

I can't recall how many times I've dealt with someone who quotes a code section, then I ask them to 'back up' to the beginning of that section. Then I get an ".......Oh." from them.

Section NNN.NN(X)(n)(x) is part of NNN.NN(X)(n), which is a part of NNN.NN(X), which is a part of NNN.NN, which is a part of NNN, which is a part of Chapter N. As a general rule, everything in the book before NNN.NN(N)(X)(n)(x) has a bearing on that section.
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Funny because the above wording is very like what he was using to justify "C" to "D" because the vanity is a counter.... And yes I had both the '99 that the job permit is under, and the '05 CEC open next to each other in the side door of my van - me saying separate - he saying together.
But like I said, he arrived to the job pre-tweeked by a silly Architect trying to go over my head attempting to get something approved that is clearly outside the code. Placing the outlet in cabinets and drawers.... So he wasn't having any of what I was telling him.
 
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