What Size Gutter or Pull Box

[Brilpitch1]

I am bidding a multi family project, and am trying to figure out what size gutter to install?
There will be 25 meters total (Including the house meter) fed with #4/0 sub feeds.
The Gear will be mounted on a retaining wall 10 ft from the building.

I am considering mounting Gutter under the meter packs, with two pull boxes mounted on the actual building. (I will be transitioning from Aluminum THHN to SER cable in the pull boxes when going into the building.

Can someone help me figure out how to size these gutters and pull boxes?

 

[infinity]

Can you post a sketch? A wireway is practically useless once you exceed 30 CCC's.

 

[petersonra]

Can you post a sketch? A wireway is practically useless once you exceed 30 CCC's.

Gutters are not wire ways.

 

[infinity]

Gutters are not wire ways.

And I have $100 that says what he's asking about it not a gutter.

 

[petersonra]

And I have $100 that says what he's asking about it not a gutter.

he said it is a gutter.

 

[infinity]

he said it is a gutter.

I know and many people incorrectly use the term gutter when they act mean a wireway the two are not the same. Gutters are actually not used very often.

 

[tom baker]

I have installed hundreds of wireways, but never a gutter. I need to look at the scope of the gutter article to see what it covers

 

[petersonra]

I have installed hundreds of wireways, but never a gutter. I need to look at the scope of the gutter article to see what it covers

366.2 Definitions.
Metal Auxiliary Gutter. A sheet metal enclosure used to
supplement wiring spaces at meter centers, distribution
centers, switchgear, switchboards, and similar points of wiring
systems. The enclosure has hinged or removable covers for
housing and protecting electrical wires, cable, and busbars.
The enclosure is designed for conductors to be laid or set in
place after the enclosures have been installed as a complete
system.

No derating until you hit 30 CCC.

 

[LarryFine]

A gutter: Imagine cutting away the top, side, or bottom of a panel enclosure and attached the open side of a wireway to the open side.

 

[wwhitney]

A gutter: Imagine cutting away the top, side, or bottom of a panel enclosure and attached the open side of a wireway to the open side.

That's been my understanding and the idea commonly propagated here, but looking at the definition, I don't see a limitation on how the gutter communicates with the meter center enclosure. So it seems like there's a reasonable argument that when you install a wireway for the purpose of "supplementing wiring space" at one of the listed pieces of equipment, it becomes a gutter, even if it just connects with the equipment enclosure via a number of nipples.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[infinity]

So it seems like there's a reasonable argument that when you install a wireway for the purpose of "supplementing wiring space" at one of the listed pieces of equipment, it becomes a gutter, even if it just connects with the equipment enclosure via a number of nipples.

If it's already a listed wireway why would it suddenly become an auxiliary gutter?

 

[augie47]

If it's already a listed wireway why would it suddenly become an auxiliary gutter?

In the new woke culture maybe it identifies itself as a gutter rather than a wireway

 

[petersonra]

If it's already a listed wireway why would it suddenly become an auxiliary gutter?

It is a gutter because of how it's used not because of how it's listed. If you use a piece of conduit for something other than running wires it's not a wire way, Even though it's listed that way.

 

[infinity]

It is a gutter because of how it's used not because of how it's listed. If you use a piece of conduit for something other than running wires it's not a wire way, Even though it's listed that way.

And nothing in the OP suggests that this is an auxiliary gutter.

 

[electrofelon]

If this is split phase, then OP has 50 CCC. Maybe split it into 2 wireways?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That's been my understanding and the idea commonly propagated here, but looking at the definition, I don't see a limitation on how the gutter communicates with the meter center enclosure. So it seems like there's a reasonable argument that when you install a wireway for the purpose of "supplementing wiring space" at one of the listed pieces of equipment, it becomes a gutter, even if it just connects with the equipment enclosure via a number of nipples.

Cheers, Wayne

It cannot supplement the wiring space unless it has an large opening between the enclosure and the gutter. If must be installed in a manner that actually increases the volume of the main enclosure, much like what happens when you add an extension ring to a box to increase the volume.

If the item in question is connected to the other enclosure(s) with nipples, it is a wireway and not a gutter.
Gutters are very rare in the industry. A couple of links to comments by industry experts for this issue.

CQD: 7/13/2015

neca-neis.org

Ryan Jackson Electrical Training

Is it a gutter or a wireway? Probably a wireway. What’s the difference? Article 376 covers metal wireways. A wireway is a sheet metal trough in which conductors are laid after the trough is...

www.facebook.com

 

[wwhitney]

It cannot supplement the wiring space unless it has an large opening between the enclosure and the gutter.

That seems like the crux of the argument, and while that's a reasonable statement, I wouldn't say that the word "supplement" adequately conveys that distinction. You can "supplement" something by putting more of it nearby, rather than just expanding what you have.

And if a gutter just expands the cabinet of a piece of equipment, why does it need special rules? Is there a deficiency in the rules for cabinets that requires special rules for modular cabinets?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[electrofelon]

That seems like the crux of the argument, and while that's a reasonable statement, I wouldn't say that the word "supplement" adequately conveys that distinction. You can "supplement" something by putting more of it nearby, rather than just expanding what you have.

And if a gutter just expands the cabinet of a piece of equipment, why does it need special rules? Is there a deficiency in the rules for cabinets that requires special rules for modular cabinets?

Cheers, Wayne

IMO, using nipples off of a cabinet into another cabinet or wireway does nothing to supplement the space of the cabinet. Maybe I could consider it supplemental if the conductors came straight out of a breaker directly into a nipple.

 

[petersonra]

IMO, using nipples off of a cabinet into another cabinet or wireway does nothing to supplement the space of the cabinet.

I agree. However most times what I have seen is long, wide slots are cut between the boxes, and the boxes are then bolted together. This seems to me to be supplementing the cabinet space.

 

[electrofelon]

I agree. However most times what I have seen is long, wide slots are cut between the boxes, and the boxes are then bolted together. This seems to me to be supplementing the cabinet space.

Yeah I agree. I think everyone does no? Or are some people saying you cant take an off the shelf wireway, cut a big rectangle in it and a matching one in the cabinet, bolt it together, put some edge guard around the cutout, and call it an AUX gutter?