What to do next? Ethically Speaking

[donf]

I was working at a nearby church extending a 20A branch circuit. When I opened the JB I discovered that all of the Neutrals were connected together as were the EGCs.

Do I push harder on the maintenance manager to get these boxes inspected and corrected or report the problem to the AHJ (don't want to do that), or just walk away?

 

[Sierrasparky]

I was working at a nearby church extending a 20A branch circuit. When I opened the JB I discovered that all of the Neutrals were connected together as were the EGCs.

Do I push harder on the maintenance manager to get these boxes inspected and corrected or report the problem to the AHJ (don't want to do that), or just walk away?

Did you ask if it could be corrected before going off half-cocked.

 

[ptonsparky]

Did you ask if it could be corrected before going off half-cocked.

Inform them of the problem, correct what you need to CYA, ask if they would like the others corrected. Record the answers on your billing and go on with the day. After a while you just get hardened.

 

[__dan]

I was working at a nearby church extending a 20A branch circuit. When I opened the JB I discovered that all of the Neutrals were connected together as were the EGCs.

Do I push harder on the maintenance manager to get these boxes inspected and corrected or report the problem to the AHJ (don't want to do that), or just walk away?

It is a liability that belongs to the property owner and possibly, their insurer. Their insurer would escape liability if they could prove it did not meet code.

With a place of assembly, inviting and sharing their space with the general public, code compliance would be something they would want to do with the highest priority.

My opinion is, your obligation would be to inform the property owner or his agent, the mm (in writing). If you felt it was something that could possible attach itself to your own liability, informing the AHJ would be next after failing to get a suitable response from the owner (informing in writing).

You will need the standard correct procedure to survive day to day and sleep well at night. Verbal in these matters counts for nothing but if you're not sure, you can discuiss it verbally (informally) with the owner's agent or AHJ.

 

[MD84]

I was working at a nearby church extending a 20A branch circuit. When I opened the JB I discovered that all of the Neutrals were connected together as were the EGCs.

Do I push harder on the maintenance manager to get these boxes inspected and corrected or report the problem to the AHJ (don't want to do that), or just walk away?

Are you saying the grounded conductors were bonded to the EGCs? If so this is a problem.

If there is only one circuit entering the box the neutrals should be connected together. The EGCs should also be connecteted together. The neutrals and EGCs just need to be separate.

What exactly is the problem here?

 

[MiElectrician]

I've been doing work in a church and finding problems too. I think it's from volunteers doing the best they can.

 

[JFletcher]

I was working at a nearby church extending a 20A branch circuit. When I opened the JB I discovered that all of the Neutrals were connected together as were the EGCs.

Do I push harder on the maintenance manager to get these boxes inspected and corrected or report the problem to the AHJ (don't want to do that), or just walk away?

If Im understanding you correctly, the issue is neutrals and grounds of different circuits being tied together? If the neutrals and ground are all under one wirenut(s), separation and correction should be simple enough. If you suspect neutrals of different circuits tied together, you need to verify that is the case. EGCs of different circuits being tied together is not a violation.

Saw many a jbox at hotels like this, where everything was jumped out of one jbox instead of from light to light. One such box must have had 11 MC cables in it, and even with the deep 2 gang extension on it, the wire wasnt close to coverable with a blank plate. I dont think any wirenut is rated for 11 conductors tho I may be wrong.

 

[petersonra]

IMO the only ethical or moral responsibility you have is to report the situation in as clearly a manner as you can to the property owner.

I think you owe it to them to report it in a clearer manner though than what you reported it here as I am still not clear what you think is wrong.

 

[donf]

If Im understanding you correctly, the issue is neutrals and grounds of different circuits being tied together? If the neutrals and ground are all under one wirenut(s), separation and correction should be simple enough. If you suspect neutrals of different circuits tied together, you need to verify that is the case. EGCs of different circuits being tied together is not a violation.

Saw many a jbox at hotels like this, where everything was jumped out of one jbox instead of from light to light. One such box must have had 11 MC cables in it, and even with the deep 2 gang extension on it, the wire wasnt close to coverable with a blank plate. I dont think any wirenut is rated for 11 conductors tho I may be wrong.

In the one JB I was in, there were 5 source cables and 5 separate outlet feeds. Each supply cable was fed from it's own breaker. All 5 of the Neutral feeds are connected to the 5 Neutrals from the outlets. 3 are 125v/20 amp and two are 240V/30 amp circuits.

All of the EGCs are connected together and are not cross connected to the Neutrals in the JB

 

[K8MHZ]

In the one JB I was in, there were 5 source cables and 5 separate outlet feeds. Each supply cable was fed from it's own breaker. All 5 of the Neutral feeds are connected to the 5 Neutrals from the outlets. 3 are 125v/20 amp and two are 240V/30 amp circuits.

All of the EGCs are connected together and are not cross connected to the Neutrals in the JB

That's confusing.

Where are there 5 neutral feeds and 5 outlet neutrals on 3 125V and two 240V circuits?

Edit: Could be 4 wire 240 I suppose.

Still, what is described doesn't sound like neutrals connected together.

 

[K8MHZ]

I was working at a nearby church extending a 20A branch circuit. When I opened the JB I discovered that all of the Neutrals were connected together as were the EGCs.

Do I push harder on the maintenance manager to get these boxes inspected and corrected or report the problem to the AHJ (don't want to do that), or just walk away?

A box with one cable from the breaker and all the rest going out to other outlets would be properly wired just like you describe.

 

[user 100]

In the one JB I was in, there were 5 source cables and 5 separate outlet feeds. Each supply cable was fed from it's own breaker. All 5 of the Neutral feeds are connected to the 5 Neutrals from the outlets. 3 are 125v/20 amp and two are 240V/30 amp circuits.

All of the EGCs are connected together and are not cross connected to the Neutrals in the JB

That's confusing.

Where are there 5 neutral feeds and 5 outlet neutrals on 3 125V and two 240V circuits?

Edit: Could be 4 wire 240 I suppose.

Still, what is described doesn't sound like neutrals connected together.

Maybe the op is saying the neutrals are tied/mixed together (incorrectly shared) between some/all those ckts???

 

[donf]

That's confusing.

Where are there 5 neutral feeds and 5 outlet neutrals on 3 125V and two 240V circuits?

Edit: Could be 4 wire 240 I suppose.

Still, what is described doesn't sound like neutrals connected together.

They cannot get any more connected together. They were manually twisted and placed under one wire nut. The only circuit that has been corrected was the one I extended and only because I refused to do the extension if I could not correct the Neutral for the circuit I was working on.

There were five separate supply wires. Each of those supply wires was correctly connected to the corresponding outlet wire. All of the EGCs are connected together. All of the neutrals were twisted together under one wire nut. I should have taken a picture, dirty word!!

When I talked to the MM, I was told to fix the circuit I was concerned about but not to touch the other wires, "Because they have been working just fine for years now." And then I was told that most of the JB around the campus are the same. It seemed to me that they believe that just because Neutrals meet at the buss bar connecting them together downstream should be fine. Like talking to a bag of sand that has been buried in concrete!

 

[user 100]

They cannot get any more connected together. They were manually twisted and placed under one wire nut. The only circuit that has been corrected was the one I extended and only because I refused to do the extension if I could not correct the Neutral for the circuit I was working on.

There were five separate supply wires. Each of those supply wires was correctly connected to the corresponding outlet wire. All of the EGCs are connected together. All of the neutrals were twisted together under one wire nut. I should have taken a picture, dirty word!!

When I talked to the MM, I was told to fix the circuit I was concerned about but not to touch the other wires, "Because they have been working just fine for years now." And then I was told that most of the JB around the campus are the same. It seemed to me that they believe that just because Neutrals meet at the buss bar connecting them together downstream should be fine. Like talking to a bag of sand that has been buried in concrete!

So they were incorrectly shared neutrals?- thats a huge no no. The egc bundling is a non issue and beneficial (multiple good paths) in the advent of a fault.

 

[donf]

So they were incorrectly shared neutrals?- thats a huge no no. The egc bundling is a non issue and beneficial in the advent of a fault.

Correct! There are five separate branch circuit cables from the panelboard. 3 of those cable supply individual 125v/20 amp recepts. 2 of the cables supply individual 240v/30 amp recepts. The Neutrals from all of the cables are tied together.

 

[K8MHZ]

They cannot get any more connected together. They were manually twisted and placed under one wire nut. The only circuit that has been corrected was the one I extended and only because I refused to do the extension if I could not correct the Neutral for the circuit I was working on.

There were five separate supply wires. Each of those supply wires was correctly connected to the corresponding outlet wire. All of the EGCs are connected together. All of the neutrals were twisted together under one wire nut. I should have taken a picture, dirty word!!

When I talked to the MM, I was told to fix the circuit I was concerned about but not to touch the other wires, "Because they have been working just fine for years now." And then I was told that most of the JB around the campus are the same. It seemed to me that they believe that just because Neutrals meet at the buss bar connecting them together downstream should be fine. Like talking to a bag of sand that has been buried in concrete!

Now I understand.

I hope there is room in the box for the extra wirenuts if you end up fixing it.

 

[K8MHZ]

I realize that connecting all the neutrals is wrong, but I do have some questions.

What, exactly, is unsafe about it?

Where, specifically in the NEC is the practice forbidden?

 

[JFletcher]

They cannot get any more connected together. They were manually twisted and placed under one wire nut. The only circuit that has been corrected was the one I extended and only because I refused to do the extension if I could not correct the Neutral for the circuit I was working on.

There were five separate supply wires. Each of those supply wires was correctly connected to the corresponding outlet wire. All of the EGCs are connected together. All of the neutrals were twisted together under one wire nut. I should have taken a picture, dirty word!!

When I talked to the MM, I was told to fix the circuit I was concerned about but not to touch the other wires, "Because they have been working just fine for years now." And then I was told that most of the JB around the campus are the same. It seemed to me that they believe that just because Neutrals meet at the buss bar connecting them together downstream should be fine. Like talking to a bag of sand that has been buried in concrete!

If what I bolded is true, the hots are connected correctly, then untangling the mass of x-connected neutrals, pairing them with the correct ungrounded conductors, and making up 5 separate neutrals instead of the one shouldnt be too much of a challenge. However, like others have mentioned, get permission for this work; what if one or more of the neutrals between that jbox and the panel has bit it (failed), you go making it code correct, but now one or more items/circuits do not work? Detail and explain the deficiencies and move on

I realize that connecting all the neutrals is wrong, but I do have some questions.

What, exactly, is unsafe about it?

Where, specifically in the NEC is the practice forbidden?

Paralleling small conductors for one. Wires of a circuit not run together for second. If you had one or even 4 of those 5 circuits secured, and broke the neutral connection anywhere on the 5 while there is a load on that last circuit, you're getting zapped. Also, this wiring scheme would flat out fail to work with AFCI or GFCI breakers. Possible overloaded neutrals as 5 circuits cannot be evenly distributed on split or 3 phase.

 

[K8MHZ]

Paralleling small conductors for one. Wires of a circuit not run together for second. If you had one or even 4 of those 5 circuits secured, and broke the neutral connection anywhere on the 5 while there is a load on that last circuit, you're getting zapped. Also, this wiring scheme would flat out fail to work with AFCI or GFCI breakers. Possible overloaded neutrals as 5 circuits cannot be evenly distributed on split or 3 phase.

Good on the code explanation, thanks. I don't think breaking a single neutral connection would be any worse than doing it in a parallel installation, like daisy chaining receptacles if the power is left on. That made me think......ALL the breakers would have to be off to be safe, and who would know which those were?

 

[ActionDave]

......ALL the breakers would have to be off to be safe, and who would know which those were?

That's the biggest problem IMO. You turn off the breaker for the circuit you are working on, test and everything is okay, the power is off until you break the connection on the neutral side....Blammo!! That bootleg neutral you didn't know about comes to life.