What to do next? Ethically Speaking
- Thread starter donf
- Start date
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donf
Member
- Location
- Tidewater Virginia
The three 20 amp circuits are using 12/3 with ground. The red conductors are just capped off, not connected to anything. The black conductors each feed one independent 120v20 recepr ea. The two 30 amp cables are 10/3 with ground and they feed one 240v30 amp recept each,
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
All the neutrals tied together was a common practice it seems. My second employer had a couple guys thst did resi only. They could fly. All whites were always tied together.:rant: If something didnt work they were lost.
Knuckle Dragger
Master Electrician Electrical Contractor 01752
- Location
- Marlborough, Massachusetts USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I agree, you should inform the church or property management company (in writing ) about wiring issue in writing for ethical reasons and to CYA.
On another note :
Maybe just a simple line diagram could heip shed some light on orhers understanding wiring the issue.
Good luck!
On another note :
Maybe just a simple line diagram could heip shed some light on orhers understanding wiring the issue.
Good luck!
I agree. Particularly the in writing point.
growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
Sure, you can find neutrals tied togather in many different buildings and you never know when it's going to happen.
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
If you keep it to one circuit/box, and dont have another lighting circuit going thru a dead end 3 way, it works fine. Get into these mcmansions with 3 and 4 circuits in an 8 gang box, it gets a hair trickier. Commercial... gets real fun when you find previous ECs have repurposed previous L-L circuits (or just ran new hots) to L-N and you find 3 neutrals serving 15 hots, and the conduit is hotter than the grill... there always seems to be one #12 carrying about 55A...yeah, the one with the yellow/brown insulation!
It gets infinitely more fun when someone actually asks for an AFCI breaker (such people do exist).. plan on 5 minutes of breaker install, and 2+ hours to trace down the crossed up neutrals causing it to trip.
donf
Member
- Location
- Tidewater Virginia
Fletch; I'm thinking I should have just shut my mouth and fixed the wiring and be done with it. The amount of time to pair up the cables would have been less than the amount of time I've spent in face to face with the maintenance manager.
For the record, they have been having issues with circuits having being hot when they think they are off, go figure. What a basket of worms. Oh, by the way, I just read a note from the mm that said they have numerous JBs on the site wired this way and there are no problems. (That they know of yet)
Also, they did of like my idea of opening covers on JBs, recepts and switches, cleaning out the outlets and inspecting the wiring and connections. Reason, parts might have to be replaced which would run up the cost. To the best of my knowledge there has been no PM on the electrical system in 30 (+/-) years. (Penny wise, pound foolish)
JFletcher
Senior Member
- Location
- Williamsburg, VA
This time it would have been faster to fix this one jbox, but how many more of them are there? I worked at a hotel once in maintenance, and after seeing a good two dozen violations for every ceiling tile I pulled/replaced, I just told them it would take me working 12hr days over the next 5 years just on electrical to have a chance of fixing it all, and that anything electrical was best subbed out to a licensed electrician rather than done in house.
I used to look at the roof of the building every day to see if it was on fire... got to the point where I couldnt work there anymore... the words "death trap" have never been more apt.
I just fix what is screwed up now unless I see something very unsafe, then I write it up, give an estimate, or if it's bothering me that badly, fix it and chalk it up to charity.
You can count on parts needing to be replaced. It's possible that a 30yr old receptacle has seen less than 100 insertions from a plug, then you'll find those that wont even hold a plug b/c they are so worn out. Switches are always the bigger pita imo; nothing grounded, you wind up ripping out years of band-aids and jumpers and overstuffed boxes, 3 ways run in weird/obsolete configurations, EGCs repurposed as neutrals, neutrals run as switch legs, it just never ends. I love troubleshooting but sometimes I hate having to fix 30 years of neglect. Look at the brightside tho: if it's 30 years old, there shouldnt be any aluminum wire.
Switches and receptacles (parts) are almost zero compared to labor.
and yes, they probably havent had any problems with the neutrals tied together. It actually can be more reliable than a single neutral to each circuit/MWBC; if you lost one of those #12s at the panel, or even all of them, the current would still have those two #10s to use. If those circuits werent used/loaded much, this could function almost indefinitely (from an electrical and 'not catching fire' standpoint). Problem is it was never allowed to be wired like that and is a major safety concern for anyone working on it. Knowing there are massive x-connected neutrals everywhere, istm the only safe way to work on this building would be killing all the circuits or main and do it after hours; that's not how it's supposed to be.
That aformentioned hotel was simply too big and screwed up to fix; this church, we talking 10, 20. 50 jboxes like this? If it is fixable, give them an estimate to fix it.
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