What to Say to a DIY

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charlie b

charlie b

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Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
In a recent PM exchange (on a very friendly basis) with a person considering doing his own electrical work, the following came into my mind. I included it in my PM. But I wanted to share it with all the members of this Forum. You may find it useful, when discussing a bid with an owner who wants to save money by doing part of the work himself. Feel free to quote at will; I do not claim a copyright. Here it is:

The one electrical concept that is least well understood by the ?do it yourself person,? indeed it is seldom even perceived by the DIY, is this:
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  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IF you finish the job without yourself having suffered any injury,</font>
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  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AND IF when you turn it on, there are no sparks,</font>
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  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">AND IF the thing you installed appears to work (i.e., the light goes on or the motor spins),</font>
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  • <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">THEN it is still very wrong to conclude that the job was done safely!</font>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There may still be a safety hazard, just waiting for an unfortunate person to touch the wrong thing under the wrong circumstances. It may take years before the problem makes itself known. You may have moved by then, and may never learn of the error that you made.

The biggest advantage of having a professional do the work is that you never have to wonder what is lurking behind the wall.
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Re: What to Say to a DIY

Mr. B, I logged back in after reading your post.I can't help but notice this statement at the top of Code Form Page:
This NEC form is for those of "Electrical & Related Industries...(doesn't seem real confusing,but maybe some clairifications might be inorder)

Questions of the "how to" nature by persons not involved in the "Electrical Industry" will be removed without noticed..

It's a MHE website,and the Moderators,well you are the caretakers.But in reading your response,seems that the above might still be in affect,As in blanket rules of the form?

[ January 15, 2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

That rule is still in effect, though not everyone who joins the Forum pays attention to it. We still get the occasional DIY asking questions. When a Moderator sees that happening, we usually do two things. The first is to move it to the ?Relocation Forum.? That has the effect of removing the post from the active area, since only Moderators have access. The second is generally to send the person a Private Message, informing him or her of our action and the reason for it. The Forum policy does not require us to give that type of ?notice,? but I think it is a polite thing to do.

Sometimes we get PM responses back. Some of those are also polite. The interchange I described above was among that set. I don?t let this go on for long, and have never yet had to send more than two PMs to the same person. Sometimes, however, the responses are not polite. I have received snide or even insulting comments, and I just disregard those. On at least one occasion, the DIY replied with something like, ?yes I understand the Forum policy, but could you just answer this question.? I disregarded that one as well.
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

There are DIYs who are knowledgeable and have some common sense. If they get a home owner's permit and inspection, then everything should be OK. There are others who think they are knowledgable and do it pretty much right without the permit and inspection. Then there are those who don't have a clue, but do it anyway, like my neighbor who wired hot and neutral to the same side of a duplex receptacle. Thank CH or whomever for circuit breakers!
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

There are DIYs who are knowledgeable and have some common sense. If they get a home owner's permit and inspection, then everything should be OK.
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....In all due respect,In that statement there..Inspectors cringe in the fact that they might be in the situation that they will need to inspect a home under those guidelines.Even the best "Electrical Inspector" will tell you,"we try but we just can't catch it all".Look at one of R. Jackson post in the pass few days.If you where to explain a wiring project to the above(DYI) as stated,could we be sure it was done correctly.This "common sense" DIY took you advise,and acted apond it.Six/eight/twelve months later,home burns to the ground.Unballanced loads on the neutrals,improper EGC"s,whatever the case.Childrens lives could be lost..Common sense homeowner makes after the fact statement,got what I assumed to be correct information via MHE website,that I acted on...Mr. "common sense" attemped,what he had "no knolledge of in the first place" and got the advice from this site.From said form members,who knew he was a DIY and gave it to him ANYWAY.Mr. common sense neighbor,should have hired the trained in that field.Maybe this why "THE RULES" are inplace.Personally,as I stated in another thread,I don't "dabble" in other trades work.."Period"..I need a carpenter,I call one.I need a plumber,I do the same.It also puts food on that trades table,and pays his bills.To the General public,if you need a Electrician, you need to be on the phone, not in this form.You may just be walking away with only part of the understanding of a "SAFE INSTALLATION"..It's way to much at risk..Your family,personal property..Speaking as a Electrician,and hopefully for my "Trained Brothers", we do not want to respond to you,and do take offence to your questions in form.We come in here responding/in the helping of one another.Making sure we are installing the safest of installation for the public at large.Even after many years of being "hands in the field",of a "ever changing industry".... (insight)...How I feel anyway..
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

dillon, I would agree, most homeowners should not even think of doing electrical work, but there are a few of us who know the theory and some of the practice who are quite capable of doing their own work. However, I do not do this work for others, and I know I am not qualified to do non-residential work.

Most of my electrical work has gone into maintaining my 40 year old AC system. Over the years I have accumulated a box of contactors, capacitors, and fan motors. I have had to replace burned out spade lugs, etc. I finally had to buy a new condenser fan motor though.

I will never post a "how to" question on this forum. Any questions I pose are for my own edification and the stimulation of a lively discussion which adds a little zip to an otherwise dry discussion of the NEC.

As for plumbing, I will do minor stuff around the house, but when it came to replacing the gas line, I wisely backed away from that one.

As you know, there are professionals, who like you, take pride in doing a professional job at a fair price. Then there are the clowns who plumbed and wired my first house. Well you have seen tradesmen like that. That is, all tradesmen are not created equal!

[ January 15, 2005, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: rattus ]
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

charlie b. I responded to a post from a DIYer Friday night and did notice it was removed. I gave him the correct advice and adviced him to seek the services of a EC if he did not understand what I had explained to him. This site has offen hosted DIYers and students and 1st year apprentanices etc. Why not let this guy get his questions answered? If were are going to limit the site to professionals in the field to Master Electrican, Electrical Contractor and Electrical Engineer lets do it accross the board. Being selective like that is unfair. I have seen a lot dumber questions asked by people here including myself than what he asked. :confused:
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

Not to speak for charlie but in my own opinion the board can be limited to anyone that the "powers that be" want. It is a privately owned site and as such their rules is the rules! I have been "Censored" ;) plenty of times and it can be annoying but if I didn't like it I could start my own site with my own rules. One persons fair is another persons unfair.
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

I don't see anything wrong with HOs or DIYers doing some kinds of electrical work. Many types of electrical work are pretty simple and can be readily learned in much less than a 3-4 year apprenticeship.

The problem is when they don't know they don't know. Its a tricky problem. Do you really want to require an electrician to come change burned out light bulbs?

I would personally never attempt certain electrical work myself, but I think I know my limitations. I am quite capable of replacing an outlet or even. I certainly would not attempt to install a service myself though.
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

As for plumbing, I will do minor stuff around the house...
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Why is it when I had to get the brakes done on my work truck (with all my tools in it), I come home to this? I had to swap out my water heater after work Friday night.
:D

Flexcoupling.jpg
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

piping needs to be bonded by most ahj interps. romex needs to be in flex or otherwise protected. used to do plumbing repair in rural NY,one part of fitting looks burned. Many consider that repairs like this need inspection. blow off needs to be continued away from top and down by common plumbing standards, some areas req. to outside.

Although I have, and would have done the same repair, and may have wanted the shower more than completing what many, if not most, areas consider basic WH safety standards. advertising it is not a bright idea.

paul
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

Originally posted by apauling:
romex needs to be in flex or otherwise protected.
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If your inspecting I am sure it does, but around here NM straight to a water heater is commonly accepted. :D
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

Originally posted by highkvoltage: This site has often hosted DIYers and students and 1st year apprentices etc. Why not let this guy get his questions answered?
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It?s a fair question.

I would be more than happy to assist a first year (even a first day) apprentice; I would help a High School student who is thinking about joining the profession. I believe it is in the interests of all of us to help that person learn to do things right. On the other hand, in accordance with Forum rules, I would not answer questions for a licensed professional electrical engineer (like myself) who wants advice on doing electrical installation work at his or her own home. I have said that several times already on this Forum.

Here is where I draw the line: Do you or do you not earn your living doing the kind of things you are asking about? For example, a PE does not earn a living installing breaker panels for his family or neighbors. So I would not help another PE do that job. But I will help another PE design or select a panel, and discuss bonding issues related to main versus sub-panels.

Does that help clarify my view of a DIY's use of this Forum?
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

George I bet there are plumbers on their message boards laughing at your work. I know I am. :D :D How dare you "Take food out of the plumbers kids mouths". :roll: I hate that saying it is totally idiotic. I hear it all the time. I'd like to say to some of these guys that gigantic coffee and endless cigarettes are probably whats taking food off your table.
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

Why is it when I had to get the brakes done on my work truck (with all my tools in it), I come home to this?
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George, if you fixed the truck brakes yourself, the tools would have been home. :D :D

Ed
 
Re: What to Say to a DIY

"George, if you fixed the truck brakes yourself, the tools would have been home. "
After seeing his plumbing skills are you really suggesting he does breaks ?
George you may be a fine electrician but call a plumber to fix that mess.
 
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