What type of wire for 0-10 dimming installation explained better

[hbiss]

Southwire now makes luminaire cable in Romex. Both the MC and the romex have 600 volt rated insulation on the dimming conductors. I thought that was because the dimmer switches have line and lv tails on them and how can you get 1/4 inch separation? My understanding is you have to keep the lv out of the box. You can run bell wire to a power pack, like a doorbell transformer, line inside lv outside.At least that is my understanding. If the cable that is listed for 0-10 volt dimming has all 600 volt conductors there must be a reason, no?

If the fixture or dimmer switch don't have separate compartments what are you supposed to do? Before luminary cable what did you do? You run your CL2 into the boxes and do the best you can to maintain separation. Sounds to me like it's per manufacturer's instructions. I've never heard of anybody using NM for the dimming circuit.

As for your doorbell example, that's a different situation. With 0-10V dimming, the CL2 is functionally associated with the operation of the fixture so bringing it into the junction boxed is allowed. Better manufacturers will provide separation. I actually remember a little while back that somebody posted here (I think) a Wago type splice that connected the power and the low voltage conductors in the junction boxes while providing separation. Wish I could find it.

-Hal

 

[Fulthrotl]

You didn't need 600V rated wiring for the 0-10V. Could have used 18/2 thermostat wire. Tried to explain that to you several times!

The 14/2 NM to me would look like DIY work. Sorry.

Yeah, there's a lot of confusion. We have this question about once a month and nobody understands it yet! It isn't that difficult.


-Hal

it isn't just here in the forum. some inspectors will not permit hybrid cable
in commercial situations, with the 0-10 control wires integral, as in southwires product.

i was in downtown LA yesterday, and a juno 0-10 dimmable 2" downlight not
only was not permitted to be installed using composite cable, but the inspector "felt" that
the fixture j box was too small to permit two cables, one in, and one out of it to be code
compliant with regard to conductor fill. i'm gonna get one of the fixtures today and measure
to see if this is true or not.

so, the EC installed 36 lights in a soffit, EACH with its own homerun back to a 16" square j box,
along with a separate twisted pair for 0-10 control.

each light is 7 watts.

 

[hbiss]

Yeah. This is really something that has to get nailed down by the manufacturers and the NEC. Then the inspectors need to understand it and not make up their own rules. Looks like every LED fixture today has 0-10V dimming.

-Hal

 

[Fulthrotl]

Yeah. This is really something that has to get nailed down by the manufacturers and the NEC. Then the inspectors need to understand it and not make up their own rules. Looks like every LED fixture today has 0-10V dimming.

-Hal

yup. every one that may go in commercial installations.

you can't sell non dimming fixtures in california any more.
well, you can't install them in anything commercial, that is.

on an unrelated issue...
i got off the phone with the inspector on those juno 2" led cans.

it's a juno 2leddriver g2 10lm 120 frpc.

the junction box is like packing a marshmallow into a piggy bank.
you can put ONE cable into it. the calcs won't permit a second one.

that is per the NEC, so it applies to all of us, not just californicators.

go in and out of that fixture at your own peril, on pain of having to do
it over. most inspectors won't say anything about it. that is changing.
it won't work anywhere in LA county, that is a certainty. there have
been FOUR jobs i've been on this month, that had to redo them.

much gnashing of teeth.

as for the 0-10 wires, those all go home as well. so, 36 home runs,
and 36 belden cables, all the way to the back of the store.

*significant* change orders. significant.

 

[Fulthrotl]

the part that i don't get, is that i can run control wires with motor leads in motor control applications,
as long as the insulation is rated for the maximum voltage. shielded cable are a disaster to run in
with 480 volt conductors, especially on a VFD, but they aren't 600 volt insulation, anyway, so no go.

i can do that in ANY raceway, as long as ALL the insulations are rated for the maximum voltage.

and i'm told i can't run 1/2" flex, with #12 for power leads, and #14 for 0-10, all THHN.
the conductors serve the device, and the device isn't being used as a raceway.
they are all rated for 600V.

what is the logic behind that? on the 0-10 volt stuff, it's not something induction will significantly impact.
full dim is the 0-10 wires shorted together. induced voltage won't be induced for long. it's a closed loop.

 

[Fulthrotl]

so... some folks want you to snoodle the 0-10 outside of the j box, and run it all exterior,
where it's subject to damage. this is dumb.

 

[PaulMmn]

As for the 0-10 wires, those all go home as well. so, 36 home runs,
and 36 belden cables, all the way to the back of the store.

Why all home runs? Why not to a run from 'home' to a series of j-boxes, with short hops to each fixture?

 

[hbiss]

what is the logic behind that? on the 0-10 volt stuff, it's not something induction will significantly impact.
full dim is the 0-10 wires shorted together. induced voltage won't be induced for long. it's a closed loop.

The concern is that there could be a cross between the line and low voltage conductors. This holds true for any mixed installation, not just dimmable lighting. That's why the reclassification requirements are technically so hard to meet, which is what you are doing when you combine line and LV in a box, cable or raceway. Thing is that it's becoming a requirement more and more today. Looks like the wire manufacturers have stepped up and done their part, but manufacturers of dimmable fixtures and dimmers are not addressing it. How do these fixtures and dimmers get listed?

One can only assume that if they are listed it's permissible to have the line and LV in the same junction box as provided by the manufacturer.

-Hal

 

[hbiss]

Why all home runs? Why not to a run from 'home' to a series of j-boxes, with short hops to each fixture?

Because somebody is going to object to the wiring in those boxes.

-Hal

 

[Fulthrotl]

Why all home runs? Why not to a run from 'home' to a series of j-boxes, with short hops to each fixture?

a lot of it depends on the situation. in a non accessible hard lid, the answer is self evident. some folks have done it
that way where they can, to cut down the cable usage....

however, ***theoretically***, these light fixtures have splices in the j box that must be accessible, and to do that,
you have to pull the ballast and j box out thru that 2" hole. good luck getting that pup out of there, with a MC cable
tied off somewhere.

and... some of the time, these fixtures are used in a lutron ECO system, and have an ECO interface device for
each fixture. it is 3" x 4" x 1", the size of a driver.

and there is no place to put it, and no way to access it where you do place it above a hard lid.

god help you if a voltage spike kills a bunch of them. it's sawzall time.

additionally, electricians, being the creatures they are, will tie the eco inputs (digital) to the 0-10 output to the fixture (analog).
it hangs the entire eco buss, and you cannot address or control anything.

year before last, i spent fourth of july with a lutron programmer, doing a starbucks in compton, that had about 60 of these
lights above a tongue and groove hard lid, inaccessible, that had all the purple and gray wires tied together.

the programmer was $4,500 for that day. oops.

 

[GerryB]

If the fixture or dimmer switch don't have separate compartments what are you supposed to do? Before luminary cable what did you do? You run your CL2 into the boxes and do the best you can to maintain separation. Sounds to me like it's per manufacturer's instructions. I've never heard of anybody using NM for the dimming circuit.

As for your doorbell example, that's a different situation. With 0-10V dimming, the CL2 is functionally associated with the operation of the fixture so bringing it into the junction boxed is allowed. Better manufacturers will provide separation. I actually remember a little while back that somebody posted here (I think) a Wago type splice that connected the power and the low voltage conductors in the junction boxes while providing separation. Wish I could find it.

-Hal

Just reading about another luminary cable called RELOC by AcuityBrands. Same as the Southwire. They said stranded wire "provides a more stable current path" for the DC signals. They also said the twisted pair 18 AWG 0-10 volt wires are "encapsulated in insulation with an incorporated grounded barrier" and that this complies with the isolation required by the NEC. Surprising that Fulthrotl said some inspectors in LA won't allow it.

 

[hbiss]

Just reading about another luminary cable called RELOC by AcuityBrands. Same as the Southwire. They said stranded wire "provides a more stable current path" for the DC signals. They also said the twisted pair 18 AWG 0-10 volt wires are "encapsulated in insulation with an incorporated grounded barrier" and that this complies with the isolation required by the NEC. Surprising that Fulthrotl said some inspectors in LA won't allow it.

"Stranded wire "provides a more stable current path" for the DC signals." Right there they lost all credibility with me.

Also, RELOC seems to be a modular connectorized system.

-Hal

 

[Fulthrotl]

Just reading about another luminary cable called RELOC by AcuityBrands. Same as the Southwire. They said stranded wire "provides a more stable current path" for the DC signals. They also said the twisted pair 18 AWG 0-10 volt wires are "encapsulated in insulation with an incorporated grounded barrier" and that this complies with the isolation required by the NEC. Surprising that Fulthrotl said some inspectors in LA won't allow it.

surprising to find out they won't in person, as well.

something to consider however, is that how you want to circuit the power and how you want to circuit
the lighting controls (dimming) are not always equal.

let's say you have thirty 4" cans in a hard lid.
not those insanely difficult ones that need a single wire, but real ones, like we normally use.

while they may all be turned on and off at the same time, they very well might not be able
to be dimmed alike. you might have 10 of them near the glass, in a primary daylighting zone,
10 of them further away, in a secondary daylighting zone, and 10 of them outside daylighting
entirely.

they will all be dimmed differently, depending on the sunlight coming in the window.
so it might be to your advantage to tie them all together, nose to toes, and run separate
0-10 wire back to the controller.

usually there isn't a significant advantage to that, but not always. i've seen it done every which way,
many of them not T24 compliant.

to hal, RELOC is a sucky way to have people who are not electricians do electrical work. i first ran
across it 40+ years ago. it sucked more then, it sucks less now, but not a lot less.

and stranded wire offering a "more stable DC path"?

you just clogged my BS filter. it'll take the rest of the day to clean it. i hope you are happy.

 

[hbiss]

If the fixture or dimmer switch don't have separate compartments what are you supposed to do? Before luminary cable what did you do? You run your CL2 into the boxes and do the best you can to maintain separation. Sounds to me like it's per manufacturer's instructions. I've never heard of anybody using NM for the dimming circuit.

As for your doorbell example, that's a different situation. With 0-10V dimming, the CL2 is functionally associated with the operation of the fixture so bringing it into the junction boxed is allowed. Better manufacturers will provide separation. I actually remember a little while back that somebody posted here (I think) a Wago type splice that connected the power and the low voltage conductors in the junction boxes while providing separation. Wish I could find it.

-Hal

Just an update. I happened to come across where I saw that splice connector- it's made by Raco.

-Hal