What went wrong with fastening these conduits?

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lbeachmike

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Long Beach, NY
Hi there -

My electrician did this work about 8 months ago. As you can see, it didn't hold up so well. This was fastened to cement-based stucco.

Thanks for your help.

walnut conduit mess 1.jpgwalnut conduit mess 2.jpg
 
Poor workmanship IMO others may chime in with different opinions.

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lbeachmike said:
Hi there -

My electrician did this work about 8 months ago. As you can see, it didn't hold up so well. This was fastened to cement-based stucco.

Thanks for your help.

View attachment 18608View attachment 18609
Click to expand...

PVC expands and contracts quite a bit with temp. changes.

I would guess these straps mounted to the stucco didn't allow the PVC conduit to move freely.

There are better straps that can be used. There is a block type that can be mounted to the stucco that will allow more movement

Probably need an expansion coupleing in there to.

I would either run those long runs lower (below windows or buried) or use EMT so it could be painted.

If you did use real electricians this could still be under warranty. I don't know your laws but here it's one year.
 
growler said:
PVC expands and contracts quite a bit with temp. changes.

I would guess these straps mounted to the stucco didn't allow the PVC conduit to move freely.

There are better straps that can be used. There is a block type that can be mounted to the stucco that will allow more movement

Probably need an expansion coupleing in there to.

I would either run those long runs lower (below windows or buried) or use EMT so it could be painted.

If you did use real electricians this could still be under warranty. I don't know your laws but here it's one year.
Click to expand...
I agree would have definitely buried or used some sort of metallic rigid conduit

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growler said:
PVC expands and contracts quite a bit with temp. changes.

I would guess these straps mounted to the stucco didn't allow the PVC conduit to move freely.

There are better straps that can be used. There is a block type that can be mounted to the stucco that will allow more movement

Probably need an expansion coupleing in there to.

I would either run those long runs lower (below windows or buried) or use EMT so it could be painted.

If you did use real electricians this could still be under warranty. I don't know your laws but here it's one year.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. These are licensed guys. They already had returned once to add a bunch more straps after I had complained about the conduit sagging in some spots.

So this is not at all due to the loading - it's entirely expansion/contraction? Because initially just a few straps broke, then the others broke after that - so to me, it appeared to be a weight issue.

This electrician recently returned and replaced all of the plastic straps with outdoor-rated metal straps. However, my concerns are -

1. Is this third attempt at it going to hold up?
2. In the second photo you can see one plastic anchor pulled right out of the wall. Plastic anchors, to me, don't appear to the be proper product for cement stucco. I don't see how plastic would anchor in a cement-based product. Is this the proper fastener?

Thanks.

Mike
 
How long is the PVC run around the corner, after the LB?

That PVC run needs to be able to expand and contract. So the broken brackets should be replaced with ones that allow movement in the direction perpendicular to the wall. Or else an expansion fitting should be added to that run around the corner, so that the pictured short run can be rigidly anchored.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Some PVC on my new house has done similar, with the block type straps no less. One more item on a long list of little projects for a new homeowner. :D

Just confirms my thought that PVC sucks for above ground, unencased work.
 
lbeachmike said:
...
2. In the second photo you can see one plastic anchor pulled right out of the wall. Plastic anchors, to me, don't appear to the be proper product for cement stucco. I don't see how plastic would anchor in a cement-based product. Is this the proper fastener?
Click to expand...

Well, another thing could be if they used a masonry drill that was a size or two too big for the anchors. That would be bad.
 
wwhitney said:
How long is the PVC run around the corner, after the LB?

That PVC run needs to be able to expand and contract. So the broken brackets should be replaced with ones that allow movement in the direction perpendicular to the wall. Or else an expansion fitting should be added to that run around the corner, so that the pictured short run can be rigidly anchored.

Cheers, Wayne
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what an "LB" is ... it's probably about a 30-40 foot run from the fence to where it bends downward and enters the house.

All broken brackets were replaced with "outdoor-rated metal brackets" - but I believe they are quite snug and don't expect they would allow much, if any, movement. I'd have to take another look (I don't live at this property.)

I see there are a couple of opinions so far. Is there any specific code / specifications as to how this part of the work should be done? For example, whether the conduit should be PVC or otherwise - whether the brackets should be plastic, metal or otherwise? The type of anchors that should be used ... ?

A Certificate of Compliance was issued for this work.
 
jaggedben said:
Well, another thing could be if they used a masonry drill that was a size or two too big for the anchors. That would be bad.
Click to expand...

The anchors are plastic. Doesn't masonry call for metal anchors? Masonry is stronger than plastic, so the plastic won't have sufficient strength to grab into anything. Any anchors I've ever seen in masonry are always metallic. Or special screws without external anchors. My gutters are not installed with plastic anchors and have held up perfectly.
 
One problem I see where the elbows/90s pulled away is where they leave the bottom of the panel there is a gap between them and the wall. When the straps were installed that pulled the fittings in toward the wall. There is pressure there trying to pull the fittings back to their normal position. With that type of anchor, outward pressure will pull it out of masonry pretty easy.
That's where the block type would work better or shim the strap out some. But unless you use something that doesn't stand out like a "sore thumb" for a shim, that won't look very good.

Anchor bolts or Tapcons would be better than those plastic anchors.
 
lbeachmike said:
This was fastened to cement-based stucco.
Click to expand...

Little Bill said:
Anchor bolts or Tapcons would be better than those plastic anchors.
Click to expand...


When he says it's cement based stucco I don't think there is a block wall behind it. That would be a real stucco. I would assume ( and we know that gets you into trouble) than this is what I call a fake stucco product. They all have a certain amount of cement in the mixture.

If it's just a veneer of stucco with styrofoam behind it there is not much for a tapcon to hold to.
 
lbeachmike said:
The anchors are plastic. Doesn't masonry call for metal anchors?
Click to expand...

After getting the picture to enlarge enough to see the anchor that pulled loose I can see that's not the right screw for that anchor kit. It's 3/4" of an inch longer than the anchor.

Anchor kits come with both anchors and screws (most even give the correct bit) and if they are installed properly they can be very strong.

The fact that most of the anchors stayed in place and the straps broke should tell how strong they can be.
 
Take a close look at table 352.44. Here in Florida, I figure that a run longer than 12 feet that is not in the sun, will require an expansion fitting. If it is exposed to direct sunlight, I expect that would be closer to 5 feet. For a horizontal run like what I see in the post, I would use EMT, otherwise, it is going to sag, period. As far as pulling out of the anchors, I am sure it is due to expansion and even if you get better securing of them you will still be dealing with a wavy conduit run that will not be presentable.
 
growler said:
If it's just a veneer of stucco with styrofoam behind it there is not much for a tapcon to hold to.
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: Or any anchoring system, you need long enough screw to hit whatever is behind the foam, if there is anything solid behind it.

growler said:
The fact that most of the anchors stayed in place and the straps broke should tell how strong they can be.
Click to expand...

PVC straps suck when used in places with temp extremes as well as in direct sunlight. Metallic straps may still fail here if not installed to allow the conduit to expand and contract - along with installing expansion fittings in the raceway.
 
growler said:
When he says it's cement based stucco I don't think there is a block wall behind it. That would be a real stucco. I would assume ( and we know that gets you into trouble) than this is what I call a fake stucco product. They all have a certain amount of cement in the mixture.

If it's just a veneer of stucco with styrofoam behind it there is not much for a tapcon to hold to.
Click to expand...

If you look at the thickness of the wall, especially around the windows, I would almost bet that is a block building with the stucco finish over it.
Either way it was not installed correctly to allow for expansion and contraction.
 
Little Bill said:
If you look at the thickness of the wall, especially around the windows, I would almost bet that is a block building with the stucco finish over it.
Either way it was not installed correctly to allow for expansion and contraction.
Click to expand...

If it is real stucco on cinder blocks then the stucco is still just a veneer and not very thick. You are mounting to cinder block so the stucco is not important.

It' depend on where you anchor to the block. If it's in a hollow part or the block it's only an inch or so thick pluse the depth of stucco. A tapcon should hold if the right one's are used but even a good plastic anchor should work.

All plastic anchor kits are not the same, some are better for this application than others. Some of the cheap one's are only good for hanging pictures on the wall.

Heck I have used toggle bolts and go to the hollow sections of cinder blocks with one hole or mineralac straps for rigid conduit.

I wouldn't have ran it that way because it looks like crap. Some people just don't think that way and it is legal.
 
Thanks for all the responses.

This is concrete-based stucco. There is no foam here.

I read that friction-fit fasteners should be used in this application to allow for expansion/contraction. Is this similar to what you guys are describing?

Aren't there specific code requirements for how this should be done?
 
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