- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
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- Retired Electrical Contractor
You're welcome. Here is something else to understand-- Causes of electromagnetic field due to wiring
What wiring method can be used to limit EMF in a home where people can "feel" EMF?
- Thread starter davenoles
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You're welcome. Here is something else to understand-- Causes of electromagnetic field due to wiring
mbrooke
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- Technician
This will be difficult for many reasons.
But first, as already mentioned 99% of all magnetic fields can be squashed by having all current carrying conductors of equal yet opposing magnitudes in the same race way. Simply put, if it trips a GFCI it will produce EMFs.
The tricky part is equipment. Some equipment like Micro waves, motors and transformers are EMF machines, and switch mode supplies put noise on the line. This part will be difficult to know before hand in that manufacturers don't have this data routinely available.
Also, not to degrade anyone, but also comes down to is the occupant really feeling EMFs or is it psychological. This is impossible to know. But, if psychological in nature even cutting all the power to the house or a true zero EMF system with appliances will still yield complaints.
I also want to ask, does the occupant have WIFI or computers? These may produce EMFs in a different frequency spectrum, but they make for the biggest contributors. Not to mention more studies are on the side of having human effect on the high side than the low side of the spectrum.
As for the studies, I just want to point out one flaw many of them have. When testing people for EMFs, the exposure is immediate with occupants asking to you feel anything? Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
This is like asking 2 normal people with an identical diet to see what's healthier: organic food or fast food. One eats McDonalds Quarter Pounders the other a kosher meal made with local farm ingredients than asking them "how do you feel" "do you have more energy" or testing blood right after. If such took place, even with millions of participants the result will yield a correlation "no difference between the two" Sounds like a sexy study but its not done right. And in fact, if I was a defender of fast food you bet I would support, publicize and fund such studies. They would go public becoming well known. When anyone criticizes such an study all I have to say is "but this was done following all applicable scientific integrity standards. X,Y,Z standards can be found here and applied there. Look, the way I see it unless you are given a chance at manipulating scientific evidence in your favor until a study finally gives you what you want to see you will never be happy. No matter how many times I prove you as wrong, you just cant accept that so therefor its all in your own head" And with that I simultaneously win and end a conversation. My own psychological projection leads to misinformation.
Now, do what I don't want you to do in my study. The exact same but every day for years 3 times a day. Chances are outcomes will be very different. And chances are Id never want that study becoming well known, and it would be easy.
Further bare in mind sometimes scientific testing isn't at all possible. What if you loose all the controls? Then its impossible to have a fair study. Consider a country where everyone smokes around none smokers "because cigarettes are safe" This would force none smokers to be continually exposed to second hand smoke, probably just as dangerous as the smokers exposure. Thus if I did a study on none smoker vs smokers in terms of health or disease, it will yield an outcome of "smokers are at no more significant risk to cancer, emphysema, or heart disease when compared to their none smoking counter parts" This can make headlines, become well known and a myth would blissfully continue as none believes would be called ignorant or unscientific. Yet, what isn't known here is that smokers smoke so much, that none smokers are always breathing it in, everywhere, to the point its no different if they were smoking cigarettes themselves. This analogy will probably come true on day for cell tower and cell phones in that use will be so wide spread, and among so many people that comparison person to person from the same decade will be of no value.
In terms of EMFs it has long been theorized EMFs effect melatonin, which is essential to normal body rhythms.
Anyway, no scientific but food for thought:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/10-professions-highest-suicide-rates-74236/
Ok, my 2 cent daily rant is over now. back to my blood pressure meds
But first, as already mentioned 99% of all magnetic fields can be squashed by having all current carrying conductors of equal yet opposing magnitudes in the same race way. Simply put, if it trips a GFCI it will produce EMFs.
The tricky part is equipment. Some equipment like Micro waves, motors and transformers are EMF machines, and switch mode supplies put noise on the line. This part will be difficult to know before hand in that manufacturers don't have this data routinely available.
Also, not to degrade anyone, but also comes down to is the occupant really feeling EMFs or is it psychological. This is impossible to know. But, if psychological in nature even cutting all the power to the house or a true zero EMF system with appliances will still yield complaints.
I also want to ask, does the occupant have WIFI or computers? These may produce EMFs in a different frequency spectrum, but they make for the biggest contributors. Not to mention more studies are on the side of having human effect on the high side than the low side of the spectrum.
As for the studies, I just want to point out one flaw many of them have. When testing people for EMFs, the exposure is immediate with occupants asking to you feel anything? Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.
This is like asking 2 normal people with an identical diet to see what's healthier: organic food or fast food. One eats McDonalds Quarter Pounders the other a kosher meal made with local farm ingredients than asking them "how do you feel" "do you have more energy" or testing blood right after. If such took place, even with millions of participants the result will yield a correlation "no difference between the two" Sounds like a sexy study but its not done right. And in fact, if I was a defender of fast food you bet I would support, publicize and fund such studies. They would go public becoming well known. When anyone criticizes such an study all I have to say is "but this was done following all applicable scientific integrity standards. X,Y,Z standards can be found here and applied there. Look, the way I see it unless you are given a chance at manipulating scientific evidence in your favor until a study finally gives you what you want to see you will never be happy. No matter how many times I prove you as wrong, you just cant accept that so therefor its all in your own head" And with that I simultaneously win and end a conversation. My own psychological projection leads to misinformation.
Now, do what I don't want you to do in my study. The exact same but every day for years 3 times a day. Chances are outcomes will be very different. And chances are Id never want that study becoming well known, and it would be easy.
Further bare in mind sometimes scientific testing isn't at all possible. What if you loose all the controls? Then its impossible to have a fair study. Consider a country where everyone smokes around none smokers "because cigarettes are safe" This would force none smokers to be continually exposed to second hand smoke, probably just as dangerous as the smokers exposure. Thus if I did a study on none smoker vs smokers in terms of health or disease, it will yield an outcome of "smokers are at no more significant risk to cancer, emphysema, or heart disease when compared to their none smoking counter parts" This can make headlines, become well known and a myth would blissfully continue as none believes would be called ignorant or unscientific. Yet, what isn't known here is that smokers smoke so much, that none smokers are always breathing it in, everywhere, to the point its no different if they were smoking cigarettes themselves. This analogy will probably come true on day for cell tower and cell phones in that use will be so wide spread, and among so many people that comparison person to person from the same decade will be of no value.
In terms of EMFs it has long been theorized EMFs effect melatonin, which is essential to normal body rhythms.
Anyway, no scientific but food for thought:
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/10-professions-highest-suicide-rates-74236/
Ok, my 2 cent daily rant is over now. back to my blood pressure meds
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
So, the polio vaccination I got when I was a child made me drug dependent... how? The fact that polio is now virtually nonexistent in populations where vaccination against it is practiced is... what? A coincidence?
Sorry, I don't buy it.
mbrooke
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- United States
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- Technician
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
There has been so many things cited that cause Autism. Unfortunately there is no scientific evidence, IMO that supports any of these. Like every thing in life there are the believers and non believers. I believe that electromagnetic field's can cause issue for some people but I don't believe that electromagnetic field's or vaccine cause autism.
mbrooke
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You have a point here.
Autism itself has never been proven to have a distinctive cause.ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I have no way of knowing if there is any connection between the polio vaccine and autism (though I am skeptical), but everything in life is a tradeoff; there is no such thing as being 100% free of risk. The best case, of course, would be for everyone in the world to be vaccinated except me. Those who are steadfastly against vaccination should probably shut up about it.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Maybe I'll sue the mobile companies because I got Multiple Myeloma from the air waves. You know, I never felt the same once I started using the phones.
mbrooke
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- United States
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- Technician
Maybe I'll sue the mobile companies because I got Multiple Myeloma from the air waves. You know, I never felt the same once I started using the phones.
I think that is the biggest hold back on saying well "there is some risk". Even if a small percentage of people did become ill from say cell towers in black and white proof then suddenly anyone living near one will want to sue. Not saying EMFs shouldn't be taken as serious, but its kind of along the lines of suing McDonalds. If you feel the food causes you weight gain, don't eat there.
mbrooke
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- United States
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- Technician
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Such as?
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Have the NEC take action and eliminate art. 310.3(A)(3) as I proposed this year. This section allows NM to be run in a manner that electromagnetic field's will be present.
mbrooke
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mbrooke
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You know your stuff
Personally I have long wanted the NEC to change how the requirements of shall be free of defects/wiring errors be met. By requiring testing like meggering/ earth fault loop impedance ect on new or modified circuits this would prove no standing faults exist that can produce EMF, in addition such testing will prevent fires plus determine the EGC is intact. Risk of EMF, fires and electrocution all eliminated.
- Location
- Massachusetts
But honestly who is actually running circuits in that way with NM?
If they take advantage of that section it will likely be to use two 2 wires in place of a 3 or 4 wire and the two 2 wire cables would be run with each other not adding to EMF.
As Karl had always pointed out if you wire normally, following the NEC it will be the appliances that will be the largest source of EMF in a home.
- Location
- Massachusetts
You know your stuff
Personally I have long wanted the NEC to change how the requirements of shall be free of defects/wiring errors be met. By requiring testing like meggering/ earth fault loop impedance ect on new or modified circuits this would prove no standing faults exist that can produce EMF, in addition such testing will prevent fires plus determine the EGC is intact. Risk of EMF, fires and electrocution all eliminated.
Cart before the horse.
Let's have some substantiation that those rules are needed and would be effective.
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One persons practical is another's nonsense.
mbrooke
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Well, there was enough substation to get AFCIs into the code.
But seriously when code requires free of defects, how do we know that? Testing is the only way to prove that.
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