brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
I can't imagine how. Put the 100A MCB to have the proper fuse size on the service, correct those other minor issues and you're good to go.
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What Would You Do?
- Thread starter goldstar
- Start date
- Status
I can't imagine how. Put the 100A MCB to have the proper fuse size on the service, correct those other minor issues and you're good to go.
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goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Thank you all for your opinions. This is what I ended up doing. While I thought that changing the MCB was a good idea, the HI's report clearly stated that the house was equipped with a 200A electric service. I wouldn't expect that a HI would pick up on the fact that the breaker panel was changed out without permits or inspections and that the SE cable and meter enclosure were not changed. By the same token, neither the HI or the potential new buyers are not my customer. So, I ended up correcting all the violations cited by the HI and billed my customer for the work and materials. In addition to my invoice I provided a list explaining the corrections I made. I then sent my customer a letter detailing the defect and code violation in the electric service along with a proposal to correct the violation.
I did this because I didn't think that broadcasting to the new potential buyers, and their lawyer was a good idea since they weren't my customer. I didn't see any benefit in stating that this was a gross Code violation and that they really didn't have a safe 200A service. Now, IMHO, my customer has the onus of responsibility to bring this subject to the forefront if he chooses to do so.
To add insult to injury, as I was making the corrections cited by the HI I couldn't help but notice more Code violations that he didn't pick up on.
Any further opinions would be appreciated?
I did this because I didn't think that broadcasting to the new potential buyers, and their lawyer was a good idea since they weren't my customer. I didn't see any benefit in stating that this was a gross Code violation and that they really didn't have a safe 200A service. Now, IMHO, my customer has the onus of responsibility to bring this subject to the forefront if he chooses to do so.
To add insult to injury, as I was making the corrections cited by the HI I couldn't help but notice more Code violations that he didn't pick up on.
- As I walked around the back of the house I noticed an extension cord plugged into an outdoor receptacle (I didn't even look to see if it was GFCI). What struck me as odd was the cord disappeared into the ground and after looking around I saw a 10' x 10' shed that was being powered by this cord.
- While correcting issues in the garage I noticed MR-11 recessed light fixtures in the ceiling along with a ceramic tiled floor. I can't imagine that a car was ever parked in there (and yes, there is living space above the garage).
- Every room that I walked into had a motion sensor associated with the lighting (bathroom included). Not sure if that is a Code violation or not.
- There were no working smoke alarms in the house at all
- Two out of four kitchen counter receptacles were wired on the same circuits as the basement receptacles
Any further opinions would be appreciated?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Before doing any work you should have addressed each item the HI had in his report with the owner. At that point the 200 amp main breaker with only 100 amp service conductor could have had two options for correction, one to swap the main breaker for a 100 amp breaker, the other to increase service conductor and possibly meter socket to allow for the 200 amp capacity of the main breaker. You may find occasional items on a HI report they bring up but don't really know what is right - you as the electrical professional are able to tell them it is right or there needs to be a change to comply with codes. You also would have the opportunity to inform them of other items you may have seen that need attention. From there you can let them decide what work they want completed.
A lot of the things that get done may not require permits to do. But if they do, (replacing the service cable and meter is a good example that likely will in a majority of jurisdictions) then you must include anything in the scope of work that your AHJ will require to finalize that permit.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
That was done several days before I began work on the corrections.
The only option I gave him was to upgrade the SE cable, meter enclosure and grounding. The Hi's report stated that the service was 200A. I felt that changing the breaker out would have squashed the deal.
The only problem I have with this is the word "them". The HI, the potential home buyers and anyone else involved are not my customers. My customer is the seller. I informed him of the defect in the electric service in writing. If he wants to bring it up to his lawyer and they decide to make the change, so be it. Irrespective of what was written in the HI's report, I did the work I was contracted to do. I wasn't being paid to investigate what other problems the house had.
- Location
- Massachusetts
You asked.
My personal opinion is simply this. Making way to much of this.
Do the work you where asked to and answer the questions that the person paying the bill requests. Collect your money, move on.
Regardless of what you feel should have been addressed it really is no ones business but the buyer and the seller.
In the end some violations where corrected that would not have been without an HI, the house will sold and you will have profited.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I'm in total agreement.:thumbsup:
The cord going into the ground I would have immediately unplugged it, on autopilot without thinking about it. I would have explained the danger to the owner and explained that liability would belong to the person who plugged it back in. I could not but he was welcome to. (done that before, part of the routine).
When I was a small child I was informed I had a small cousin in another state who died instantly. She was swimming and stepped on the extension cord connection that was powering the pool filter. Ever since then, I find I have gotten out the dikes and started cutting up extension cord wiring, especially old 1950's zip cord stapled in place with octopus blocks, before even realizing I have chopped out their power.
If they want to sleep in the garage, they are welcome to imo, idc. Better than under the bridge. There is an artificial shortage of fine living units based on town refusal to issue permits, forcing people into substandard and expensive accommodations. Not my area to involve myself, unless I was building competing housing and the town was refusing my permits.
No smokes, if I had detected that, must advise of this deficiency in writing. Then I could walk away and sleep well.
The service, changing the main simply would not have occurred to me. SER and the meter sockets do not last forever. They leak and corrode. The tells, homeowner changed the panel, homeowner buried extension cord to power his shed, tell me he hacked and made unsafe everything he touched.
Proper repair imo is to bring the service up to where he said it was. 200 amp service change includes the meter socket, riser, panel GFI outlet, and service grounding. It's a good bet the old riser and socket are in the same condition as the old panel when it was changed, and also need replacement with new.
I would feel my obligation is to give good advice, the advice I would want to receive when I need a professional's opinion. How they spend their money is entirely at their discretion. Enforcement is not the problem. The problem is maintaining your position as expert witness and not as named defendant.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Stating it is a 200 amp service kind of doesn't mean anything. Yes in this case the service conductors supplied a single 200 amp breaker, and therefore are required to be 200 amp or more rated conductors. Reality is you could have had two 200 amp main breakers supplied by this cable and would have been code compliant if the total load calculation were equal or less then the ampacity of said cable.
HI could have said it was a 100 amp service and wouldn't have been any more right or wrong in that as he was in saying it was a 200 amp service.
HI could have said it was a 100 amp service and wouldn't have been any more right or wrong in that as he was in saying it was a 200 amp service.
I never expect anyone to know load calc methods or conductor protection requirements for code compliance. That's what they should hire me for.
What I expect everyone minimally competent to do is to be able to read the label if it says it is a 200, there is an assumption of trust by all parties this is a true statement, and there is an assumption of trust by all parties each has met his own obligation to the truth that this work meets code fully.
The reality is that anyone saying this is a 200 amp service is a liar and the person performing the work has done crime. It is separate and unrelated to the question of if a 100 or 200 is a better choice.
By the time I do that work, load calc it to see if the 100 is a good fit (no central air, hot tub, or electric heat), inspect the grounding, buy and change the main, inspect the meter socket for water and corrosion, I could be halfway through changing the socket, riser, and grounding to 200.
The owner is trying to cheat the buyer out of a service change.
What I expect everyone minimally competent to do is to be able to read the label if it says it is a 200, there is an assumption of trust by all parties this is a true statement, and there is an assumption of trust by all parties each has met his own obligation to the truth that this work meets code fully.
The reality is that anyone saying this is a 200 amp service is a liar and the person performing the work has done crime. It is separate and unrelated to the question of if a 100 or 200 is a better choice.
By the time I do that work, load calc it to see if the 100 is a good fit (no central air, hot tub, or electric heat), inspect the grounding, buy and change the main, inspect the meter socket for water and corrosion, I could be halfway through changing the socket, riser, and grounding to 200.
The owner is trying to cheat the buyer out of a service change.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
That may very well be the case but I still think the onus is on him (and his lawyer) and not me to bring these facts to the table at closing time.
- Location
- Massachusetts
I would put that as something entirely inappropriate for the electrian to concern themselves with
The concerns have already been stated clearly.
The electrician has a duty to carry out the work the customer contracted for, and (an implied or assumed duty) to advise of electrical hazards and code violations discovered during the work. There is a duty to mitigate damages. That is all. The electrician's duty is to protect himself by disclosing deficiencies to the owner. If it is not work under contract, there is no obligation on anyone to fix it.
The concern about cheating is, like potato chips, you never eat just one. The electrical contractor would have to be on guard, that trust has been broken. That is a legitimate and necessary concern, if he can trust his counterparty to do the right thing without watching his back. I would be concerned about if I could trust this customer, assuming he knew full well he only changed just the panel.
Most of the rest of it may be legal, but if he casually ignores legal requirements, with something as dangerous as electricity, he could be dangerous to the electrician or his money (along with this casual disregard). You must have seen this.
I would certainly view it differently if this occurred by accident or by intent. Every minimally competent person knows to not bury an extension cord. It takes someone acting with intent to cheat and possibly harm, to do so. It will show the general standard of work and not a single anomalous instance.
If I was working there, I would certainly assume he may have wired something that could hurt me , one way or the other. That I certainly have seen.
- Location
- Massachusetts
If I took that approach I might as well stay home.
Virtually every building I work in has multiple violations.
It is not my job nor my obligation to fix the world. When I see something that I believe an true hazard I will act but in most cases not.
As far as determining if someone else is cheating someone else, not my business and a company would be on dangerous ground to jump into that.
brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
I think it would've been ok to offer both options though. Another way to look at is that the HI was wrong; it had a new panel with the wrong OC protection.
The homeowner certainly has the right to refuse any repairs and sell as-is. Many times buyers are cautious to make too many demands on the seller in fears of having their offer rejected.
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brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
I agree. State the facts and move on.
Many years ago when I was a young service tech, I went on a call for a tripping AFCI's, and found the EC had chiseled the bus bars to use an AFCI of a different brand in a loadcenter. All the AFI's & GFI's fell out when I took the cover off. Went in to telling the HO how dangerous it was; she asked what to do, and I said "oh I'd sue for malfeasance." The house was maybe 5 years old; I went so far as to get her the original permit to see who the EC was. Then I let her film me explaining all of the issues in front of the panel so she should "show her husband." Dumb, dumb, dumb. Tried to drag me to court as a witness saying they already had my deposition on tape. Don't be that guy. I was young and dumb though. Lesson learned, knowledge passed on.
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It is clear to me the point is to not jump into that, and if you find it is happening, to not get caught up in it. Get in, carry out your obligations, and get out.
Knowing the law, how it applies (imo), the steps necessary to stay on the right side of it, and not fall victim to "cheating".
I don't have the personality for it, but I am aware successful contractors profit from the customer's mistakes. But that was not the point. The point was to not get hurt by the customer's mistakes.
Seeing some cheating, it does not directly follow that you would have to call the customer a cheater. Simply advise as a professional, the correct and economical path forward, with the reasons or code citations necessary. It is not complex. It is the standard a minimally competent honest person would expect.
Every day I am concerned this illegal and crap work is going to hurt me or someone else. I see a lot if it and I am not staying home. Show me more of it and you will hear more about it (in writing).
Knowing the law, how it applies (imo), the steps necessary to stay on the right side of it, and not fall victim to "cheating".
I don't have the personality for it, but I am aware successful contractors profit from the customer's mistakes. But that was not the point. The point was to not get hurt by the customer's mistakes.
Seeing some cheating, it does not directly follow that you would have to call the customer a cheater. Simply advise as a professional, the correct and economical path forward, with the reasons or code citations necessary. It is not complex. It is the standard a minimally competent honest person would expect.
Every day I am concerned this illegal and crap work is going to hurt me or someone else. I see a lot if it and I am not staying home. Show me more of it and you will hear more about it (in writing).
Fnewman
Senior Member
- Location
- Dublin, GA
- Occupation
- Sr. Electrical Engineering Manager at Larson Engineering
Interesting conversation - as a P.E. and HI, I can see the different points of view. Specifically, we have to understand that most home inspectors are thought to be 'generalists' and none that I know of are fully proficient in all aspect of the electrical, plumbing, building codes, etc. To a large extent their job is to identify potential issues that should be further investigated by licensed professionals - nothing more. That is often stated in the fine print along with a comment that says something like 'this report is provided for consideration by the buyer and seller, but does not obligate either' (short version). Inspectors are taught to describe the service capacity based on the limiting component but in this case the inspector just missed it, along with some of the other items mentioned if they were not in the report.
Jps1006
Member
- Location
- Northern IL
The piece of this that makes me uncomfortable is when the HI says "recommend licensed professional investigate further". You go out with your "just repair what asked" blinders on. At the closing table the buyer sees that a licensed professional has been out and assumes you have now blessed the whole property.
I hate the idea of the seller slapping lipstick on it to close the deal. As a buyer I would never let the seller repair. I would only negotiate it out of the selling price.
It might not hurt to put on the invoice (that will invariably be displayed at closing)
"At the request of the customer, performed the following tasks only:
Did not inspect for any other discrepancies "
I hate the idea of the seller slapping lipstick on it to close the deal. As a buyer I would never let the seller repair. I would only negotiate it out of the selling price.
It might not hurt to put on the invoice (that will invariably be displayed at closing)
"At the request of the customer, performed the following tasks only:
Did not inspect for any other discrepancies "
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