What Would You Do?

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jeff43222

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I'm in the middle of a kitchen remodel job, and the GC asked me to add a light and a couple of three-way switches at the top and bottom of the stairs just off the kitchen. No problem -- the job is T&M all the way.

Homerun from the panel to the switch (in a new box) at the top of the stairs and running 14-3 from that switch to the switch at the bottom of the stairs was no problem.

Putting in a new switch at the bottom of the stairs is where things get hairy. The wall is opened up, and in that location is an existing single-gang box with two single-pole switches in it (two switches on one yoke). One switch controls the workshop lights, and the other is a total mystery. The box has three runs of old AC going to it (cloth insulation). GC and HO want the new three-way switch in that location and don't want to demo the old stuff.

So the plan was to rip out the old box, put in a new two-gang box, reconnect the old switches, and put in the new three-way switch. But the existing runs of AC have very weird wiring in them. One run contains two hots from the same circuit, but no neutral. Each of these hots was connected to a switch pole. The other two runs each have one of the switched hots, as well as an unswitched white wire that is spliced in the box. I naturally thought it was a neutral, but the workshop lights worked just fine with it disconnected. I have no idea where the second switched hot wire goes, or what either of the white wires is connected to elsewhere.

My concern is that two of the runs of AC have only hot current running through them in one direction, so there is the inductive effect to consider. Then there's the issue of the workshop lights getting their neutral from a mystery source. Finally, there's the mystery run, with a switch that controls it. Complicating matters, the entire basement is finished with wood paneling (1950s style), and the ceiling is also finished with tiles. I already found plenty of buried j-boxes just working on the kitchen, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the mystery run connects to a buried j-box somewhere.

The GC suggested that I just reconnect the old switches the way they were and forget about them, but I'm not so sure that it's wise to do that.

Anyone care to venture an opinion?
 
Re: What Would You Do?

I believe you are correct to be concerned. IMO, you have a responsibility to make sure your work is correct.

If the GC asked me what he's asking you, I might respond "I'll check with the inspector, and if he says it's ok, then I'll do it".

Good luck.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

You've had it apart and know there's a problem. No matter what anyone tells you, now your liable. And you better believe that if ANYTHING happens in the future the lawyers will come looking for you.
The lights on with open neutral makes me think that someone put a green wire to the neutral behind a light. (A very common problem when there's no obvious placed to connect it.) That's very unsafe!
The two hots to a switch sounds like a possible back-feed.
Keep in mind, in the "old days" they would do things like, switch the neutral, run power to the light boxes and then have "dead end" switches, or really screwed up 3 way switches.
View this as a mystery, everybody loves a mystery!
I would remove every switch, light, receptacle, etc. in the area. Then use a circuit tracer if necessary. You'll find what's up.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

Originally posted by wolfman56:
[QB] You've had it apart and know there's a problem. No matter what anyone tells you, now your liable. And you better believe that if ANYTHING happens in the future the lawyers will come looking for you.

I agree with Wolfman, you opened it you are now responsible.

I had an inspector tell me once that I was the EC and I was responsible for doing the electrical work right not the GC or HO.
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Re: What Would You Do?

I'm sorry. I just can't get on board with the blanket statement that "you opened it, so you own it". If this were the case, no electrician could ever do a electrical evaluation. You are implying that if an electrician removes a cover (panel, wallplate, JB, etc.) that they are now required to fix all violations, regardless of whether the HO contracts for the work. And, in the most extreme case, you would be arrested for tresspassing and vandalism in the case where the HO not only does not want to pay for the repair, but does not want the repair done at ALL.

I would agree that if you disturbed it, THEN you own it. I just don't believe that removing a cover makes us responsible for what we SEE inside. Just my opinion.

Mark

[ December 08, 2005, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: busman ]
 
Re: What Would You Do?

Originally posted by busman:
....
I would agree that if you disturbed it, THEN you own it. I just don't believe that removing a cover makes us responsible for what we SEE inside. Just my opinion.
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I agree with you Mark, you I misspoke :)

Jose
 
Re: What Would You Do?

Originally posted by busman: I would agree that if you disturbed it, THEN you own it. I just don't believe that removing a cover makes us responsible for what we SEE inside.
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That works in the engineering world as well. But let me add that if I were to look inside something and see a problem, I do have at least one responsibility: to notify the owner of the problem. If there were any doubt of safety or liability, I would go so far as to notify the owner in writing. If the owner wishes to hire me to design a fix, then I would own the entire problem. Otherwise, I own nothing. But then I believe (???) I would be protected from liability by virtue of having notified the owner.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

I would hate to think if i changed a bad breaker that i now own the panel and service.If i see a danger i do feel i should tell them ,but it ends at that point.If they reject the fix then its not mine.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

99% of the time i go in an older building i see all kinds of violations. Where do we draw the line.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

I find the best way to avoid liability on these cases is to inform the HO or GC of problems discovered. If the fix is declined I note the unsafe conditions on the invoice along with declined at this time.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

"99% of the time i go in an older building i see all kinds of violations. Where do we draw the line."

That is not the same situation as the OPs original situation.

When a Qualified individual sees a violation (he has opened the box and exposed the conductors) that is potentially hazardous to the health and welfare of the individuals in the building, the Qualified individual has the moral and ethical responsibility to make mention of the situation. I do not believe that he "owns" the job, nonetheless he does have to make mention of it. The GC and the HO will not be expected in a court of law to be the experts, but the EC will. The hazard has to be mentioned, I also believe you had better do it in writing, that will protect you.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

In this case, the screwy wiring I found in the switch box was just one instance of many screwy things I have found during this job. The HO and GC are well aware of the issues with the wiring in the house. As far as I can tell, much of the wiring was done by a DIYer in the 1950s. I have never seen so many buried j-boxes, and in some cases the j-boxes were mounted in such a way that the cover plates were right up against walls or ceilings. Apart from being a dumb way to do things (and a code violation), I don't see how the wiring was installed with the j-boxes facing the wrong way (it's all AC with no slack). Another example: When we opened up the ceiling, we found a big piece of loose BX with a black and white wire hanging out of it, with each wire connected to the red and green wires of a phone line. Fortunately, it was BX being used for the phone system and not phone wires used for power, but still.

The current HO has been in the house for 28 years, and the screwy wiring is obviously older than that. Fixing the problems I have found thus far would be cost-prohibitive. This is already a very expensive kitchen job, just from my standpoint, because I've had to spend way more time than usual dealing with the old wiring.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

As others have mentioned, you have an obligation to notify the homeowner of the present conditions. Personally, I would explain all the hazards that I had seen and what is involved in correcting them. Let them decide what to do. They are in an unfortunate situation, but you did not cause it. I would not be inclined to "touch" the circuits you described without authorization to do whatever it takes to rectify the problems. As you said, repairing everything is probably cost prohibitive. How much could be abandoned and rewired? In any case it is the homeowners decision on what you should do.
 
Re: What Would You Do?

As an engineer, I agree with Charlie. Opening up a box and evaluating the situation doesn't put you in the position of being responsible for problems that you find. However, I believe that you have a professional and ethical responsibility to provide the HO and GC with your findings. At that point it becomes their responsibility to decide how to proceed. Personally, I'd do it in writing so nobody develops amnesia if there's a problem later.
 
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