Whats a doorway?

[k0y0te]

I'm working on a renovation project which required us to turn two old rooms into one new electrical room, i.e. we removed the wall between the spaces to make one room for all the new electrical gear.

We have one switchboard that is 2000A and it is longer than 6'0", plus several smaller panelboards.

We only have one entrance/exit to the electrical room. (continuous and unobstructed path from the equipment to the door).

Problem is, the architect found a structural issue with removing the wall between the two rooms. He added the dividing wall back between the spaces and put a passageway through the wall. The passageway is just a 3'0" cased opening through the wall.

I let him know that the passageway idea wouldn't work because we no longer have an unobstructed path away from the equipment to the exit door. And of course, his response is how wide do we need to make the passageway in order to consider it an unobstructed path.

Now I'm stumped. Best I can tell is that we will have to use two egress doors now.

Or can we make that passage wide enough that the path of egress is considered unobstructed? Also, is the cased opening even consdered a door?

What do you guys think?

 

[ultramegabob]

In my opinion, it is not a doorway, if it doesnt have a "door"....

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would kind of have to go along with ultramegabob on this one, but I could change my mind if I saw a picture.

 

[buldogg]

I would ask myself if I were wearing a 40 cal/cm arc flash suit and was involved in an incident, would I be able to have quick way out of the room thru the passageway?

 

[ptrip]

Could the Architect provide a new beam and column in lieu of a wall and cased opening?

If he doesn't want to do that, can the opening be made "double clearance" wide?

Good luck ... existing conditions are sooo much fun! <sarcasm>

 

[mivey]

The size of the opening is not a code issue, but I would think there might be a problem with it being continuous:

NEC.2008.110.26(C)(2)(a) Unobstructed Egress. Where the location permits a
continuous and unobstructed way of egress travel, a single
entrance to the working space shall be permitted.

It appears you would have to make the pathway continuous or put in another entry.

 

[pfalcon]

Consider the sanity issue of converting two rooms to one and then back again; instead of installing a beam and posts. I question your architect's limit of understanding.

Like it or not you no longer have ONE room. Stop trying to imagine it as one room. You have two rooms separated by an unfinished doorway. If that unfinished part bothers ultramegabob too much then duct tape some cardboard on one side that you can push to exit.

Is a 36" door frame a sufficient exit for the back room? 110.33(A)(1)(a) does not require a door. (b) doesn't require a door be mounted either. Also see 110.26(C)(2)(a) and (b).

Is the electrical equipment continuous between the two rooms or can they be treated as separate installations?

From my first impression your installation is continuous between the two rooms and either a second exit is required or the wall must be modified to make it one room again.

 

[ultramegabob]

Like it or not you no longer have ONE room. Stop trying to imagine it as one room. You have two rooms separated by an unfinished doorway. If that unfinished part bothers ultramegabob too much then duct tape some cardboard on one side that you can push to exit.

You may be correct that they have two rooms, but in my mind duct taping cardboard to a archway, pass-through, entry, whatever you want to call it, hardly makes for a door, Im not sure why you suggested doing that anyway

 

[mivey]

Consider the sanity issue of converting two rooms to one and then back again; instead of installing a beam and posts. I question your architect's limit of understanding.

It does seem odd the architect did not consider beams & posts to maintain a continuous space. Architects tend to like those big open spaces and they tend to prefer the pricey solutions.

Maybe he is not much of an architect. Or, maybe he just wanted to emphasize the point that no type work should be done without consulting the architect. Or, maybe the owner did not like the cost of the beam option. k0y0te could fish and find out for curiosity's sake.

FWIW: I like the beam option.

 

[pfalcon]

In my opinion, it is not a doorway, if it doesnt have a "door"....

You may be correct that they have two rooms, but in my mind duct taping cardboard to a archway, pass-through, entry, whatever you want to call it, hardly makes for a door, Im not sure why you suggested doing that anyway

If you are confused then I must have succeeded :wink:
The architect recreated the prior situation where they have two rooms with an entryway (proper term) between them. So if the equipment is continuous between the rooms then the architect royally messed up.

Mivey and I only disagree on how charitable to be about the architect :grin:

 

[k0y0te]

Thanks for all of your input. That?s exactly what I needed.

The equipment is continuous along the wall. And now has a wall (that was going to be removed) right through the middle of it.

Sounds like the consensus is that we now have two rooms (and I agree). Now I need to go have a talk with Mr. Architect.

If he can?t figure out how to remove that wall, then we will need two exits.

Thanks.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Let me play the devils avdicit for a minute. You have a room that contains equipment that requires two exits, correct? You have one door and one "cased opening" that leads you into another room? Two exits, correct? If you put a door on it would it comply as the second exit? You only need the two exits for the large equipment, if the other panels are in the other half.....

What does the code say? You are only required to have one entrance not less than 24" wide and 6 1/2' high at each end, it does not say door. If it has a door then it must meet the requirements listed in 110.26(C)(2).

You are only required to have an unobsturcted exit if you are trying to get by with a single exit. Again a door is not required.

 

[k0y0te]

Looks like I didn?t explain very well. We are talking construction plans so far. Renovation hasn?t started yet.

We started with two rooms (side by side). Neither was large enough for the electrical equipment. So we planned to remove the wall between the two rooms to make it one large room. Due to the building layout, we could only have one exit from the large electrical room. At that point, everything works.

The architect found that removing the divider wall would cause a structural issue, so he put the wall back on the plans, and added a cased opening between the two rooms.

Now I have one electrical room that empties into a second electrical room, then out to a common area. Hope that makes sense.

From what I can tell, we are going to have to remove the divider wall from the plans, or somehow find a second exit.

 

[cowboyjwc]

So you're trying to use 110.26(C)(2)(a)? And you're saying that the wall even though it has an opening is an obsturction?

When you say room, I keep seeing an old office in my mind.

I would tend to agree then that post and beam is the way to go to solve the problem.

I do not understand why, when we know what's required for an electrical room, we still can never seem to get the building designed to accomidate it. But we always have room for a 400 sqft presidents office. If it's only on paper now "redesign the building".:-?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

First we need to know which code cycle you are referencing, it could make a substantial difference. I did not read thoroughly, so if you provided that info, sorry.




It is not the entrance to the room that may be important. The NEC requires entrance to the "work space".
The size of the room and location of the equipment will help in determing the entrance to the work space.

Is there a way for you to scan the print to this thread?

 

[k0y0te]

John, you hit the nail on the head. I think that the wall/passageway just became an obstruction.

Pierre, we are using 05' NEC, and I see your point.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Now I go Awwwwwww and then I have to agree with Pierre, I think now I would really need to see it too in order to give you a good answer.

 

[mivey]

If he can?t figure out how to remove that wall,

Where's Ronald when you need him?:grin: