what's the black device attach on the meter

[cowboyjwc]

In another galaxy far far away I had a roommate who (after I had moved elsewhere) discovered that he could pull the meter, turn it over, and restab it upside down to make it run backwards. He got caught when he forgot to turn it back over before the meter reader came by. I don't know what the consequences were but they must not have been too severe because a few years later he became a police officer.

knew someone here that did that, they went back and averaged his usage from the time he bought the house and 5 years back on the previous owners. I think they settled for $1500

 

[Jraef]

A company I worked for had a new building built, but due to delays we had to move in before they were done because we had given up our old lease. The GC got us a temporary occupancy permit and we moved in. 6 month later when it started to get cold, the shop was complaining to me that none of the gas unit heaters were working. I checked the pilots but they wouldn't light. So I went outside to make sure the gas was tuned on, no meter! Since we have a combined gas and electric utility (PG&E), I went into the electrical closet outside and discovered that the GC had put jumpers in the meter jaws to get power, then forgot about it. PG&E fined us and gave us a whopping "estimated" use profile, despite our showing them the last 5 years of billings for our previous building.

 

[gadfly56]

A company I worked for had a new building built, but due to delays we had to move in before they were done because we had given up our old lease. The GC got us a temporary occupancy permit and we moved in. 6 month later when it started to get cold, the shop was complaining to me that none of the gas unit heaters were working. I checked the pilots but they wouldn't light. So I went outside to make sure the gas was tuned on, no meter! Since we have a combined gas and electric utility (PG&E), I went into the electrical closet outside and discovered that the GC had put jumpers in the meter jaws to get power, then forgot about it. PG&E fined us and gave us a whopping "estimated" use profile, despite our showing them the last 5 years of billings for our previous building.

The GC should have owned that "oops!", including the estimated profile. After a few years, I hope you were able to get that usage adjusted based on your actual profile.

 

[meternerd]

I find it difficult to believe that a flipped meter runs backwards. Logic tells me that the current travels through the meter the same either way.

Your logic has failed you this time.... If the voltage of the sinewave is positive and the associated current of the sinewave is positive, you measure positive power. V*I*Pf = Watts. If you reverse current in relation to voltage, you have V*(-I)*Pf = -Watts. Basic algebra. If current is entering the top jaw when the voltage on that jaw is positive, it's plus Wh and the disk rotates left to right. Turn the meter over and voltage polarity will remain the same but current will now be leaving the "top" jaw, since the meter is inverted and the meter will still rotate left to right,:? but will actually be turning backward (if you stand on your head):slaphead:. It looks like the meter is still turning in the right direction, so it can cause some confusion. I spent many an hour trying to explain it to meter readers, but I'm not sure it really got through to 'em. Newer digital meters are a whole different story. I'm really not trying to talk down to anyone, just keeping my old brain exercised.

 

[meternerd]

I have never seen anything like this but there appears to be some sort of adapter between the meter and meter socket. Maybe it's a utility installed TVSS device.

It certainly is interesting to look at.

I too noticed the "adapter" between the meter and the socket. The box labeled ACLARA could be associated with it. They are a vendor of communication technology for smart meter and AMR meter systems. Could be a prototype test that the utility is participating in.

 

[Jamesco]

Good luck cutting that ring. I don't know what they're made out of, but they don't just cut off.

I think it's made of stainless steel.

 

[GoldDigger]

I think it's made of stainless steel.

I wonder whether the reader unit is battery or induction powered or the adapter ring provides a voltage and power line transmission connection? Probably the latter. So you have a complex way to be able to continue using the old meters.
I also wonder whether the adapter also includes a remotely activated disconnect contactor?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[mivey]

I wonder whether the reader unit is battery or induction powered or the adapter ring provides a voltage and power line transmission connection? Probably the latter. So you have a complex way to be able to continue using the old meters.
I also wonder whether the adapter also includes a remotely activated disconnect contactor?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Adapter ring?

Not reusing old meters, at least a utility would not since more economical solutions exist using new meters. Disconnects are built in to new meters, at least for this size.

 

[growler]

Good luck cutting that ring. I don't know what they're made out of, but they don't just cut off.

I have cut a couple of the barrel locks (tamper proof rings) off over the years. The best way is with a dremel tool and cutting wheel. It also works well for locks where keys have been lost.

When I cut those rings I had the permission of the power company because they couldn't get them off. I needed to chech out the meter base and possibly change it out.

 

[mivey]

I too noticed the "adapter" between the meter and the socket. The box labeled ACLARA could be associated with it. They are a vendor of communication technology for smart meter and AMR meter systems. Could be a prototype test that the utility is participating in.

What would Aclara be doing with an externally-mounted, relatively expensive device on an old meter that probably has limited life remaining?

You might get 20-30 years on average out of an old EM meter (though probably not accurate over that whole span) but 12-15 at best on average for new digital meters. Why put that kind of money out there on an old meter?

 

[mivey]

I have cut a couple of the barrel locks (tamper proof rings) off over the years. The best way is with a dremel tool and cutting wheel. It also works well for locks where keys have been lost.

When I cut those rings I had the permission of the power company because they couldn't get them off. I needed to chech out the meter base and possibly change it out.

:thumbsup:

 

[kwired]

I find it difficult to believe that a flipped meter runs backwards. Logic tells me that the current travels through the meter the same either way.

Your logic is true for a ammeter, but a watthour meter is more complex, it will run backward if you have onsite power production and are generating more power then you are using also.

 

[mivey]

Your logic is true for a ammeter, but a watthour meter is more complex, it will run backward if you have onsite power production and are generating more power then you are using also.

If programmed that way. Many use dual registers: one for forward energy flow, one for reverse energy flow.

Without specific net metering requirements, the meter is probably set to log forward energy flow in one register for either physical orientation.

The old meters did run backwards when upside down but soon came with detents when upside down.

 

[kwired]

If programmed that way. Many use dual registers: one for forward energy flow, one for reverse energy flow.

Without specific net metering requirements, the meter is probably set to log forward energy flow in one register for either physical orientation.

The old meters did run backwards when upside down but soon came with detents when upside down.

Yes electronic display meters have many potential capabilities. Older mechanical meters will spin backward if power flows through them "backward" if they don't have mechanical means to prevent reverse spin.

 

[Jamesco]

I wonder whether the reader unit is battery or induction powered or the adapter ring provides a voltage and power line transmission connection? Probably the latter. So you have a complex way to be able to continue using the old meters.
I also wonder whether the adapter also includes a remotely activated disconnect contactor?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Two AA batteries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hduElE5sIMw

 

[Jamesco]

I have never seen anything like this but there appears to be some sort of adapter between the meter and meter socket. Maybe it's a utility installed TVSS device.

It certainly is interesting to look at.

I think what you are seeing is the strap that supports the reader to the meter.

Video for installing the reader.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hduElE5sIMw

 

[meternerd]

What would Aclara be doing with an externally-mounted, relatively expensive device on an old meter that probably has limited life remaining?

You might get 20-30 years on average out of an old EM meter (though probably not accurate over that whole span) but 12-15 at best on average for new digital meters. Why put that kind of money out there on an old meter?

Maybe I'm missing something....What exactly do you mean by "an old meter?" That IS a solid state meter and the device is monitoring IR pulses. Plus, I have tested EM meters that are at least 50 years old and they almost always test within 1%. One advantage of solid state is that they either run accurately or die. I have yet to see any test slow or fast, just 100% or not working at all. Of course, that's just my experience........... And "that kind of money?" The manufacturers are more than eager to install test metering equipment on thousands of "test" locations to verify accuracy, communication reliability, etc. Big money if your company gets the next PG&E smart meter contract! There's a LOT of competition in the utility industry because there's lots of money to be made, and with smart metering, it's a government requirement to eventually have a "smart grid". But of course, the utility has to foot the bill.....meaning you and me, the customers....

As far as the utility allowing it on their meter if it's customer owned, I'd be surprised, since we have the ability to do field testing of meter accuracy and we require the IR pulse to do the tests. We'd make 'em take it off!

 

[kwired]

As far as the utility allowing it on their meter if it's customer owned, I'd be surprised, since we have the ability to do field testing of meter accuracy and we require the IR pulse to do the tests. We'd make 'em take it off!

If it is not "invasive" in any way (externally mounted and not causing any kind of interference) to the POCO meter and is only optically collecting whatever data it is collecting what is justification on making them remove it?

I do agree POCO meters are typically accurate, but you can't always convince a customer that. Every time I have been called to investigate high electric bills we always find the meter to be accurate and that the customer actually had high usage for whatever reason.

Got called to a new house that I didn't wire many years ago, they weren't happy with their EC or HVAC contractors, and called me to investigate why electric bill was so high. Turned out they had a heat pump system, it was early summer, system was calling for cooling but was also kicking on resistance heat at same time because of some mis-wirng of controls.:blink:

 

[mivey]

Maybe I'm missing something....What exactly do you mean by "an old meter?" That IS a solid state meter and the device is monitoring IR pulses.

Someone suggested the utility might be trying to get new functionality out of an old meter.

Plus, I have tested EM meters that are at least 50 years old and they almost always test within 1%.

They tend to slow down as the bearings wear. A small number speed up.

And "that kind of money?" The manufacturers are more than eager to install test metering equipment on thousands of "test" locations to verify accuracy, communication reliability, etc. Big money if your company gets the next PG&E smart meter contract! There's a LOT of competition in the utility industry because there's lots of money to be made, and with smart metering,

I don't see that being the case here.

As far as the utility allowing it on their meter if it's customer owned, I'd be surprised, since we have the ability to do field testing of meter accuracy and we require the IR pulse to do the tests. We'd make 'em take it off!

I agree.

 

[mivey]

If it is not "invasive" in any way (externally mounted and not causing any kind of interference) to the POCO meter and is only optically collecting whatever data it is collecting what is justification on making them remove it?

The POCO may not want devices mounted on their equipment. Gets in the way and the clamp could damage the meter housing.

I do agree POCO meters are typically accurate, but you can't always convince a customer that. Every time I have been called to investigate high electric bills we always find the meter to be accurate and that the customer actually had high usage for whatever reason.

Then the customer can put monitoring equipment on their main, which is what many do.

Some want pulse data and they can pay to get pulse data from the utility meter or put in their own CTs and create their own pulses.

If they want validation it would be better to have their own so they can compare with the utility usage totals.

Got called to a new house that I didn't wire many years ago, they weren't happy with their EC or HVAC contractors, and called me to investigate why electric bill was so high. Turned out they had a heat pump system, it was early summer, system was calling for cooling but was also kicking on resistance heat at same time because of some mis-wirng of controls.:blink:

Many also do not realize that when it gets real cold and heat strips come on that the heat strips use 3-4 times the amount of electricity that a heat pump uses.