whats up with the infux of DIY questions ??????

[iwire]

Perhaps it's because I never work without the appropriate supervision and the people everyone else thinks of as "DIYers" do?

Perhaps it is because I don't see which category you fit in here.

From your Profile.

Occupation:
IT network engineer

From the forum rules.

This site is designed for:

• Contractors
• Electricians
• Engineers
• Inspectors
• Instructors
• Other electrically related individuals

* This NEC? Forum is for those in the electrical and related industries. Questions of a "How-To" nature by persons not involved in the electrical industry will be removed without notice.

If I had an apprentice card would you be treating me the same way?

Treating you how?

I have not deleted your posts, I have not given you a hard time.

All I have done is stated my personal opinion.

Do I have to go down to the license folks here in town and get me one of them cards?

That would help.

All I am doing is pointing out that your getting some slack cut here. This forum closes and deletes DIY post very frequently.

So...Are you in the trade or are you not in the trade?

It is my personal opinion that you are not in the trade.

 

[winnie]

Based upon what I have seen of TallGirl's posts, she falls under a grey area that Mike Holt himself would need to pin down. My personal opinion is that her participation is welcome here.

She is clearly _not_ a professional electrician, and she is not working for hire.

She _is_, however, working with correct supervision, under a correct legal framework, with suitable inspections for the services that she is performing.

IMHO, what she is doing is _not_ DIY, because it is work (even though for free) being performed under a proper framework in a professional fashion, with suitable licensed individuals involved.

Her questions are no more inappropriate than any apprentice questions. She has the necessary supervision to catch her errors when she doesn't even know to ask about a particular issue (the big problem with DIY questions.)

This forum encompasses a large number of fields, and not all of us are licensed electrical contractors. I am here as a researcher in electrical fields. I can appropriately argue code nits and theory, and ask questions about such, but if I ask how to properly terminate a conductor in a subpanel, then this should be considered a DIY question because I would be asking for instruction on a topic outside of my field of work, and outside of a proper legal framework.

If one of the non electrician PEs on this forum asks questions about how to make better designs that are easier for electricians to install, then that would be in their job and under a proper legal framework. But if the same individuals were to ask how to install a service in their home, then IMHO this would be an improper DIY question.

-Jon

 

[petersonra]

Before I posted that earlier response, I went and Goggled "how to install a hot tub" and found a well-written article explaining how to do it. I don't recall that article also explaining that the reader shouldn't do it because they could get killed. It did mention making sure the tub was level so as to make sure the parts worked correctly, and using larger lumber, so the entire thing didn't self-destruct. But it didn't say "Look, jumping into an electrified contraption full of water is dangerous, so hire someone else to do the electrical work, Kay?"

Well written might mean it was accurate. It might also mean it was easy to read and inaccurate. How an average reader would know the difference is not clear to me.

Its dangerous if it is electrified. The whole purpose of doing it right is to keep it from being electrified.

 

[petersonra]

In my neck of the woods one used to be able to go to the building department, pay a $5 fee, and get an electrical contractor's license. IMO, just having such a license, while making me "legal", would not necessarily make me competent.

 

[jeff43222]

I believe Rockford, IL still has such a policy. It floored me when I read it on the city Web page.

 

[petersonra]

I believe Rockford, IL still has such a policy. It floored me when I read it on the city Web page.

Thats the town i was referring to.

Incidentally, as far as I can tell, it has not resulted in a large number of fires or other catastrophes from poor workmanship.

 

[tallgirl]

Perhaps it is because I don't see which category you fit in here.All I am doing is pointing out that your getting some slack cut here. This forum closes and deletes DIY post very frequently.

So...Are you in the trade or are you not in the trade?

It is my personal opinion that you are not in the trade.

I'm not sure I can answer your question. Really.

I'm a member of a 501 (C) (3) organization, incorporated in the State of Louisiana and known by the City of New Orleans (and other governmental bodies thoughtout the Gulf Coast region) to do disaster relief and recovery work. Other members of that organization are licensed electricians, some licensed within Louisiana, and others licensed within jurisdictions which may (or may not ...) have reciprocal agreements between Louisiana and their home state. From time to time, other licensed individuals become involved with the organization and for free or fee (meaning, some have been paid), and perform or supervise assorted work. Those are the people I work with, unless I'm confiscating extension cords or otherwise yelling at people.

In my personal opinion, that makes me something much closer to 'unpaid apprentice' than "DIYer", which is why I don't have a personal problem being here. I've been completely above board in terms of what I do in New Orleans, and what I do with the kinds of questions I ask. Winnie's (Jon's) summation is pretty much the way it is.

I do get asked, by other people in the organization as well as people in the area, to wire up their houses, apartments or whatever. Unless they've got an electrician who will supervise the work, I won't touch it. I don't care how nice they are, how much they beg, or how tragic their own story is.

I can, and have, laid out entire houses, and wired more than a few of them in my life. And I've always had an electrician around to ask questions and supervise my work, even if I knew how to wire something he didn't .

(Edited to clarify who Winnie / Jon is.)

 

[joe tedesco]

It seems that recently there has been a huge influx of DIY questions.This site has been designed for electricians and not DIY`s ers.Maybe the moderators need to examine the new members before they are allowed to post a question.Just a thought !!!!

DIY'ers? Send them here:

http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33433

This is a new place called: "The Electric Thread" where the "Moderator" uses his copy of the 2005 NECH to generate and post questions and answers he has about our industry.

 

[radiopet]

You can also send them to www.doityourself.com

 

[George Stolz]

I hadn't seen this thread until tonight.

I have to say, I do not consider Tallgirl to be a DIYer. We are not here as licensing enforcement agents. There are many states in this union that do not have licensing requirements, and we do not bar electricians from those states from participating here, nor should we.

There are some here who operate outside the licensing requirements of their state, or have in the past, or plan to in the future due to a necessary move and a lack of reciprocity arrangements with their current state.

One of the more prolific posters of this forum operates (on ethical grounds) outside the licensing requirements of his state. Since he has never made it a public issue, then many probably would never suspect a thing, because he's knowledgeable in the code, intelligent, and endorses good work practices. I respect his decisions because he is a grown up and can take care of himself, and it's not my place to judge. He is a positive contributor to this forum, and has over time become quite excellent with the code. Looking from the a long time back to now, it's a remarkable sight to see the changes. From enduring to florishing, you could say. Ring a bell?

Right now I know about another man who is sitting behind a desk at his daddy's company, waiting for his five year mark so that he can take a master's exam with no - absolutely no time in the field. He has no interest in the trade, aside from the money to be made from it. I seriously doubt he's ever opened the code book, and he's a good two years into his "apprenticeship."

Who has a better claim to participate in this forum? The "master" or the volunteer?

Someone versed in the codebook who wishes to participate here is welcome in my book. But I am not a moderator, or anyone of consequence, but in my opinion, this forum is for teaching and learning, and not enforcing state/county/city/parish/village licensing laws.

 

[tallgirl]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, George. The check is in the mail

 

[ceknight]

Based upon what I have seen of TallGirl's posts, she falls under a grey area that Mike Holt himself would need to pin down. My personal opinion is that her participation is welcome here.

I'll second that.

Tallgirl hesitates to name the group she's working with in New Orleans, but I won't.

{MODERATOR'S NOTE: Link has been removed, along with references to the name of the organization, per the desires of the person concerned.}

There, she's been outed.

When I was down there last February, I took a long, slow tour of the lower ninth ward. (This organization) was the only visible relief organization in the entire area that day -- you'd be driving past bleak devastation, then you came to this oasis of blue where there was life and activity, volunteers trying hard to match up goods and services to those who really needed them. I was impressed.

Look. There really is a shortage of qualified tradesmen there, and (this organization) and other groups are trying hard to deal with those shortages. As far as I can determine, tallgirl's trying to find ways to cope with those shortages and still get houses and community buildings rehabilitated. It's easier to get volunteers to gut, insulate, sheetrock, and paint than it is to get an electrician willing to park a van in that area (and that last point is really more significant than most of you know), so she's struggling to find and teach legal, safe ways to do preliminary wiring so that work can go forward before the sparky comes in to finish the job. Hence all of her conduit questions, etc.

She's trying to learn, she's not working on her own house, she's interested in the profession, she asks good questions, she's mostly supervised, and she's doing good work in a hellhole that really needs more people like her williing to do it.

If that's grounds for being banned from this forum, when other members can make complete arses of themselves in public and be tolerated just because they're (um) "professionals", I may have to reconsider my own membership here.

Have a good day,

 

[winnie]

I have not seen a suggestion that TallGirl actually be banned.

Bob (iwire) is a moderator, and could probably have simply banned her by fiat. He has mentioned that it is his opinion that what she is doing is DIY, but as a point for discussion, not as a moderator's decision. I'm pretty certain that TallGirl will remain here, and I suspect that iwire will even answer her points in other discussions. We know where TallGirl is coming from.

This is in context of a larger question about what are clearly DIY posts, and IMHO this includes posts from people who list their professions as 'electrician'. We cannot police people to determine if they are lying about their profession, but I am seeing many posts that trigger my 'DIY flag'. Go read one of the DIY forums; you will see what I mean. Questions reveal a certain level of knowledge, and you will see many questions that will make you ask 'what else does the person not know?'

IMHO, the most significant danger of DIY questions is the issue of 'what do they not even know to ask'? A DIY question might be 'What size wire do I need to run a 20A circuit 200 feet?' There will be a discussion of voltage drop and the like, and they will be told to use #10. Little do those who answer the question know that the questioner is now going to go out and buy #10 SO, for use underground, for low voltage lighting Or that they will install #10 NM-B, with no clue about box fill, cable protection, or proper use of wire-nuts.

This thread in particular sets of my DIY flag: http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/showthread.php?t=81165 If someone doesn't understand the basics of a load calculation, I would question what else they don't know about.

-Jon

 

[tallgirl]

Chris,

I wish you hadn't done that. I like my privacy and not having people know where I'm going to show up when I say "I'm going to New Orleans" is a big part of that. We have little or no police protection down there, and while I'm very handy with a 9mm, I don't bring one. Also, I don't speak for the collective, so I'd prefer not to have people asking me questions about the collective as an organization and limit their questions to me as an individual.

Everything you say is true. It's a mess and it needs people to show up and fix it.

On the other hand, as I explained to Charles and Bob by PM (and everyone else in an earlier thread out in the open) this has moved from being a sometimes volunteer thing to a planned career move (I'd planned on changing careers in about 5 years anyway -- the change is still planned, the target profession is all that's changed). The moderators apparently met, discussed, wore funny hats, and then decided I am welcome, provided I stick to the usual rules for posters, according to my own unique circumstances.

Tech was a great ride while it lasted, but it's not showing a lot of signs of lasting too many more years. Here's a Google page full of articles. A guy I knew for 18 years was let go last week and countless other people I've known are now beating the streets, looking for work.

 

[charlie b]

I have not seen a suggestion that TallGirl actually be banned.

You wouldn?t have. Discussions of this nature, among the moderators, take place off-line.

I will simply state that Tallgirl is not among the 40+ persons who have been banned from participation in this forum, and no such action is currently under contemplation.

Chris, I wish you hadn't done that.

It?s been undone (i.e., the link to your organization has been deleted).

And to be clear, you may take my allusion above as a confirmation that you are welcome to continue to participate in the forum.

I hope you will be able to distinguish work that is performed under the supervision of a licensed electrician from work that is done without that supervision. The later is DIY work. Forum members are not allowed to assist you with DIY work, any more than they could assist me (as I am also an engineer by profession, even though I do have an "Electrician Trainee" license), with unsupervised electrical installation work.

 

[tallgirl]

I hope you will be able to distinguish work that is performed under the supervision of a licensed electrician from work that is done without that supervision. The later is DIY work. Forum members are not allowed to assist you with DIY work, any more than they could assist me (as I am also an engineer by profession, even though I do have an "Electrician Trainee" license), with unsupervised electrical installation work.

Except for asking silly questions about outlets 5' up the wall, I think I'm pretty good about that.

A lot of the questions I've asked in the past have been, as Chris (I think) put it, trying to figure out ways to do things in a safe and legal manner. Other work I do there is "Hi, I'm Julie and I'm here to tell you that power strips are not the solution to your problem" or "Hi, I'm Julie. You'll notice the fire extinguishers we've located around the building." I trust I don't have to be supervised to steal people's unsafe extension cords, coffee machines, or power strips ...

Most of my questions will be basic residential wiring, some light commercial (we have a few commercial buildings we own or have leased) stuff, and maybe contractor type questions about estimating the amount of material to do a job. If I want to spend money (and I'm good at spending money ), I usually have to have an estimate in advance. The guy I'm supposed to work with tomorrow to finish trim a house or two will likely become a new source for answers to questions. And who knows, I might get him to join and then he can tell you bad things about me, like that I put my grounds up instead of down

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Julie,

like that I put my grounds up instead of down

I wish you wouldn't have said that...now I have to vote to toss you.
Don

 

[jeff43222]

And who knows, I might get him to join and then he can tell you bad things about me, like that I put my grounds up instead of down

Grounds down?! That's it -- off with her head!

 

[ceknight]

I wish you hadn't done that....

I posted the URL for that non-profit relief agency so that people could read and learn about it. And to make it clear that you weren't DIYing.

While you may have never identified the group by name in this forum, you have referred to the Blue House on more than one occasion. A while back in another thread I even referred to that Blue House as the Common Ground house. So it's not exactly a secret.

Besides, I don't think it even slightly likely that anyone here is going to become a personal safety threat after looking at that web page. Unless I missed something, you aren't personally identified anywhere on that page. Someone might, however, volunteer or send in a donation. Or give you a virtual pat on the back.

Or at least they might have, until the URL got "moderated" out.

C'est la vie,

 

[tallgirl]

I posted the URL for that non-profit relief agency so that people could read and learn about it. And to make it clear that you weren't DIYing.

The organization, for those of you who didn't see the URL before it was moderated out, is Common Ground Collective. I don't speak for them (we have spokespeople, and they can speak for the group in an official capacity), and not wanting to create the impression that I'm some kind of spokesperson, I've refrained from mentioning them. I'm a member of the collective, the same as everyone else.