What's Upstream at the Port of Poulsbo

[RAndress]

Many of you may have seen the recent newsletter heaping deserved praise on those responsible for the fine work done to make this marina safer. https://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=1811

As per the 2017 code, the pedestal breakers are GFCI protected at 30 mA.

Does anyone know what type protection device feeds thes 30mA GFCI breakers? Is it a GFP breaker? If so, what trip limit? And how many pedestals connections (GFCI breakers) are fed by a single up-stream breaker?

Finally, for the 120V connections, does this feeder (or main) device provide ground fault protection using a single-pole 120V breaker or from one leg of a 240V/120V double-pole device? For 240V and 240V/120V circuits I assume they are fed by double pole devices. But, if not, how are they fed?

-Randal

 

[RAndress]

Why are these important questions? The wording (if not the meaning) of the 2017 code for 555.3 is problematic - especially for those willing to spend the money to provide safe power, follow the code, and still have a usable marina.

See the following from the Mike Holt Newsletter archives:

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=1772

http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php?file=PDF/Marina_GFP_Concerns_01-03-2017.pdf

http://www.mikeholt.com/newsletters.php?action=display&letterID=1789

 

[curt swartz]

There is no such thing as a 30ma GFCI. A GFCI must trip between 4-6ma.

 

[steve66]

There is no such thing as a 30ma GFCI. A GFCI must trip between 4-6ma.

Not quite true. A GFCI for people protection must trip at 4-6 ma. These are called class A.

GFCI for equipment protection is available with a 30ma trip. These are class B. You can find QO breakers with this feature in the square d catalog (QO-EPD).

 

[curt swartz]

Not quite true. A GFCI for people protection must trip at 4-6 ma. These are called class A.

GFCI for equipment protection is available with a 30ma trip. These are class B. You can find QO breakers with this feature in the square d catalog (QO-EPD).

All GFCI's are Class A. If it is not Class A it is not a GFCI.

 

[buzzbar]

There is no such thing as a 30ma GFCI. A GFCI must trip between 4-6ma.

They do, in fact, make 30 mA GFI breakers. You may call it something else, but they exist. I believe that if it's 30 mA, it's it's called a "GFP". It's all semantics I guess.

By the way, here in Washington, the 30 mA requirement has been delayed until 7-1-2018, so for now, the requirement for marina feeder protection is 100 mA or less. I don't know what was installed at the Port of Poulsbo job, but the current code would only require 100 mA.

 

[Smart $]

Not quite true. A GFCI for people protection must trip at 4-6 ma. These are called class A.

GFCI for equipment protection is available with a 30ma trip. These are class B. You can find QO breakers with this feature in the square d catalog (QO-EPD).

Class B is considered GFPE, ground-fault protection of equipment, and not GFCI.

In fact, the EPD part of the model number for those Square D breakers stands for Equipment Protective Device.

http://www.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/ul_GroundFaultProtectiveDevices.pdf

 

[steve66]

All GFCI's are Class A. If it is not Class A it is not a GFCI.

I wondered if that was your point, but you could have said "that's the wrong term" instead of saying "they don't exist".

But GFCI = ground fault circuit interrupter. Seems perfectly fine to describe either a 5ma or 30 ma trip to me.

That may not be the official term, but I believe myself and others will continue to call them that.

 

[buzzbar]

I wondered if that was your point, but you could have said "that's the wrong term" instead of saying "they don't exist".

But GFCI = ground fault circuit interrupter. Seems perfectly fine to describe either a 5ma or 30 ma trip to me.

That may not be the official term, but I believe myself and others will continue to call them that.

Yep! Couldn't agree more. They both INTERRUPT the circuit when the mA threshold is reached. It's just that one (GFCI) protects personnel, and the other (GFCP) protects equipment. I'm sure that the lawyers came up with the "P" term in the 30 mA version. Even though the intent of 555.3 is to prevent ESD, or at least TRY to prevent it.

 

[RAndress]

They do, in fact, make 30 mA GFI breakers. You may call it something else, but they exist. I believe that if it's 30 mA, it's it's called a "GFP". It's all semantics I guess.

By the way, here in Washington, the 30 mA requirement has been delayed until 7-1-2018, so for now, the requirement for marina feeder protection is 100 mA or less. I don't know what was installed at the Port of Poulsbo job, but the current code would only require 100 mA.

Thank you!

That's quite relevant to my question which was based on the assumption that they were working to the 2017 555.3. I was specifically wondering whether or not they provided GFP on the breakers (feeder/main) that were feeding the supply side of the 30 mA GFP breakers on the shore supply cords (required by the 2017 555.3). And if so, what the trip level was of these feeder devices. Since they are using 2014 my question doesn't make sense :-(

The problem - introduced by 2017 555.3 of possibly (depending on your interpretation) being required to use a 30 mA GFP device on a feeder - goes away. If they are using 2014, then they do not have to provide GFP at the pedestals but may chose to provide it at the feeder or main.

 

[charlie b]

By the way, here in Washington, the 30 mA requirement has been delayed until 7-1-2018, so for now, the requirement for marina feeder protection is 100 mA or less.

That is for feeders only, not branch circuits.

WAC 296-46B-555, "Special occupancies—Marinas, boatyards, and commercial and noncommercial docking facilities."(1) Until July 1, 2018, the ground-fault protection level specified in 2017 NEC 555.3 is amended to allow a maximum of: 100 mA for overcurrent devices supplying feeder conductors; and 30 mA for overcurrent devices supplying branch circuit conductors and outlets.