What's your minimum service charge?

[aline]

The problem is when it only takes me ten minutes to fix the problem they balk at the price

Never go in and fix the problem right away. Have the customer show you what the problem is and assure them that you can take care of it.

First you want to inspect the entire electrical system. It's best to have a check list. Start at the service and check for loose connections, signs of overheating, proper grounding & bonding, etc. Take the covers off of all panels and do the same.

Check the rest of the home for GFCI protection where required by code, broken receptacles, broken cover plates, carbon monoxide & smoke detectors, etc.

In most cases you won't have any trouble finding other things that need attention. If you don't find anything you can always ask if they would like a dimmer installed, whole house surge protection or something else you feel they may want. Do they have carbon monoxide detectors?

After you inspect the entire electrical system then make the repair. Present the price for the repair to the customer along with a list of other things you found during the inspection. Explain to the customer how they'll save money by having this other work done while you're there.

This way for $130 the customer not only gets his problem fixed but also knows how safe the rest of his electrical system is. You didn't just fix the problem but also did an inspection as well. You've given the customer more value for his money. This also helps prevent a call from an angry customer when something else quits working after you leave and they feel you must have been responsible because you were just there working on their electrical.

I went on a call where the only problem was a tripped GFCI breaker in the panel. Instead of just resetting it and charging him, I did the inspection and found some loose connections in the panel, no GFCI protection for the kitchen receptacles, other broken receptacles with exposed live parts, etc. I explained to the customer how to reset the GFCI breaker, showed him the checklist of everything else I had inspected and presented him with prices for making the other repairs while there.
I also offered to install whole house surge protection for his power, phone and cable lines.

He decided to have me do it all while I was there so instead of a quick ten minute service call I ended up doing over $900 worth of work.

It costs a lot of money, for both you and the customer, to get an electrician out to their home.

If you're only spending ten minutes in the customer's home you're cheating both yourself and the customer.

 

[macmikeman]

How about a macmiketip? I try to target corporate and institutional facilities for service work. Lots have in house guys but lots of places don't. The ones that don't want the problem fixed right away. Nobody is paying attention to whether it takes an hour, 10 minutes, or 5 hours, they just want the problem to go away. Small tenant stores in malls do not fit this description, they are more like homeowners. I go in and out of there like a sidewinder missle covered with wire lube. Then I send my huge bill. This kind of job takes me 30-90 days to get paid so I build interest into the bill without itemizing it. I don't like overcharging your grandma, but I have no concience when it comes to sending a smoker to the type of customer I am describing above. And the best part is I am finding flat rate pricing works even easier on those jobs than it does on houses. My ultimate goal is to get the contract on Exxon or Mobile but I got a feeling it is out of my reach. Whenever I fill up my gas tank that thought hits me.

 

[satcom]

"It costs a lot of money, for both you and the customer, to get an electrician out to their home."

"If you're only spending ten minutes in the customer's home you're cheating both yourself and the customer."


The average payouts, for a service contractor, with employees in a metro area is anywhere from $50 to $70 an hour, before any labor, or profit is added in, these payouts include your truck payments, truck maint. costs, and truck operating costs, also your overhead expenses are added in, they are your insurance costs, general liability, both state and private workers comp., fire and theft, and the big one medical, add office expenses, and accounting costs, advertising budget, phones, office expenses, and your way up there, add in a weeks vacation and your over the limit.

It appears that anyone charging $65 an hour, would be just covering his expenses, with nothing for pay or profit, i would question, if even twice that amount would produce a profit, this may be the reason, for so many contractors going belly up, i have see contractors drop out in just one year, and others hang in for years, working for little or no pay, no medical, no vacations, and nothing to show for it in the end.

The same reasons are given, over, and over again,for not charging what it costs to run a business, the customer thinks it is too much, i can't charge that much, i will not get any business, everyone else charges less, i look at the other guy, what he is charging, well the other guy may not know his cost of doing business, and the customer may not be happy at any price, high or low, so the only way to establish a rate, is to first know your own costs, and be sure that with these costs you will have the type of business that you can pay yourself a decent wage, have medical coverages, be able to take a vacation, even if only 3 days a year, there is no short cut to running a business, most of us have good trade skills, and may just need to add some business skills, to make for a better living.

Just a comment, on Aline's post, it is a good practice, to check past the problem point on any job, it gives both you, and the customer assurance that other problems will be addressed.

 

[77401]

Never go in and fix the problem right away.
He decided to have me do it all while I was there so instead of a quick ten minute service call I ended up doing over $900 worth of work.

WinTF do you work?
To me this sounds like fraudulent sales. Let me guess you can really get the litle old lady's to sign over their SS check to you.
Let me guess you learned your sales techniques selling vacuum cleaners door to door?

 

[satcom]

What he is doing works, two years ago, in my local area, there were around 17 or more, one to three man shops, when these service company EC's came in, all the local EC's said, they would not be around for long, they charge too much, well, here we are two years later and they not only still around, but they are putting on more men, and trucks, they charge twice, or more then any other EC in the area, from the 17, there may be 10 left, and i expect as the service companies expand they will push out the others in time, what these new guys do, is respond on time, with new fully stocked trucks, uniformed electricians, with good pay, they fix the problems, and do a quick check for other problems.

You can sit by and watch, as they continue to get more market share, or you can learn from them, and make changes in your own business.

 

[77401]

Personaly IMHO I find it fraudulent what they do.
We have them here too. They are the go to guys for service in under an hour.
But what they do is once inside your house they sell the HO things they don't need. For example, & I know this, as I have gone behind them on these jobs personally!. one customer wanted an outside plug put in just because there wasn't one on the porch. "the" company said we can't add any more load to your house unless the service is upgraded as its under sized.
ANother one was changing outside wall lanterns on the house & detached garage. they shorted out the circuit to ground & told the HO the underground feed to the garage was bad. It was all working before they got there!

 

[satcom]

"Personaly IMHO I find it fraudulent what they do."

For those companies that do that, they should be reported and taken to task, here in Jersey, they would face a large fine $5000 to start, and loss of Lic. for a period of time, you can look up on Electrical Board of Contractors, and see all the violators, they inforce it here.

The service companies i am talking about are the independant small guys that, have real electricians, not service techs, they do service work, not sell jobs, they operate above board, no high pressure sales, please don't confuse these guys, with the national type, of make big money guys.

 

[aline]

Would you rather I charge you $130 and fix the problem in ten minutes and leave or would you rather I charge you $130 fix the problem and also inspect the rest of the electrical system which includes tightening loose connections.

If installing GFCI receptacles in the kitchen, outdoors and anywhere else required by code to increase the safety of the homowner and his children is fraud than I'm guilty as charged.

If you go into a customer's home and see broken receptacles with exposed live parts, lack of GFCI protection or other safety hazards do you just ignore them? Isn't it better to bring these to the attention of the customer and let him decide if he would like them fixed while you're there?

I would consider it fraud if I tell the customer I need to replace a breaker when I could just reset it. Or telling him he needs a service upgrade because his 15amp breaker tripped.

How is making recommendations for other repairs or other installations fraud?

It's going to cost him a lot more if he has to call someone out again next week because I failed to bring other problems to his attention. Sometimes during the inspection I find loose connections that could have cost him a lot of money down the road but I fix these for free while doing the inspection. This may save him from an expensive service call later.

What if after you left one of his kids pulled a hair dryer into the tub and was electricuted because there wasn't any GFCI protection for the receptacle by the sink?

How would this make you feel?

How would the homeowner feel when he finds out that he should've had GFCI protection and you failed to mention this to him while you were there?

During my inspection I often find lots of hazards. Hot tubs without GFCI protection, exposed live parts, etc. In one home the cover for the sub-panel in the basement was missing. There were young children in the home and the live buss was sitting there exposed. When I asked the homeowner where the cover was she replied "Why do I need that? Is that to keep the dust out?"

If I had just went out and reset the tripped GFCI in her garage without doing the inspection I would never have seen the missing cover.

I charge a dispatch fee to go out to a customer's home. As part of this fee I do the inspection. Then I give the customer an exact price upfront for the repairs. If it's troubleshooting by the time I'm finished with the inspection I have a good idea of how long I think it will take to diagnose the problem. I will then quote the price for diagnosing the problem. If it takes me longer than I expected to find the problem the price remains the same.

Often I will find the problem while doing the inspection. In this case I present my minimum diagnostic fee to the customer along with prices for any other repairs I feel the customer would benefit from. It's up to the customer wether or not they want to have any of the other work done.

If I go out to a customer's home and only collect $130 I'm losing money. There are usually plenty of other legitimate problems with the electrical. You don't have to lie and make stuff up. I feel obligated to inform the customer about safety issues with their electrical. It's up to them if they want to do something about it.

How is offering to install a dimmer or whole house surge protection considered fraud? I don't tell people this is something they need. I just explain the benefits of having them.

Doing other work while you're there can benefit you and the customer.
The customer that bought over $900 worth of work was very happy when I left. It was all stuff he felt like he benefited from.

Would he have been happier if I had spent ten minutes there and charged him $130? I doubt it.

I also have a 100% money back guarantee. If a month later he decides he was taken advantage of I will refund all of his money. If he feels I took advantage of him by selling him whole house surge I will come out and remove it and refund him 100% of his money for the surge.

My guarantee in writing:

"If you're not completely satisfied with our electrical services we'll give you your money back. Nothing is more important to us than your complete and total satisfaction."

So far I've never had anyone wanting their money back.

 

[Dnkldorf]

Personaly IMHO I find it fraudulent what they do.
!

You are not the only one.

There are a couple sites, where all they do is trade these secrets around to each other, and then somehow want all other EC's to do the same, for the good of the industry.
They complain about how anyone who doesn't charge as much as they do, do nothing but hurt the industry...

Now granted, there are very honest EC's out there, who do great work, and charge very high rates( compared to the surrounding EC's in a given area), but they know their customer base.

Understanding your customer, and your market, will allow you to charge accordingly.

 

[bjp_ne_elec]

Rawls007 - what city, state ya in? Just wondering where the traffic bears $65/hours.

Thanks


Brett

 

[aline]

But what they do is once inside your house they sell the HO things they don't need.

I agree telling the customer they need something when they don't is fraud.

When I sell GFCI receptacles I don't tell them this is something they have to have. I simply explain the safety benefit of having these installed.

If I explain it well enough I don't have to sell these.
The customer will want to buy them.

When I go out to dinner I'm almost always offered desert. It's not something I need but often times I buy it anyway. If they didn't ask I would probably buy it less often. I don't feel I'm being conned because they asked me if I'd like desert. They simply offered it and I chose to buy it.

I'm not sure where in my post I implied that I told the customer he needed to buy this stuff. I simply offered it to him and he chose to buy it.

What's wrong with that? Unless you think offering GFCI protection or installing carbon monoxide and smoke detectors is a rip off.

Do you think whole house surge protection is a waste of money? Do you have surge strips on your computers? Are these a waste of money as well?

When I order a hamburger they ask; "Would you like fries with that?"

When installing a light fixture whats wrong with asking; "Would you like a dimmer with that?"

I call that selling not fraud.

Maybe I wasn't very clear in my post.

To me getting extra work while there makes good business sense. There's many things a customer doesn't need but just might buy if given the oportunity. When the guy bought over $900 worth of work I wasn't expecting it. I almost alway's offer whole house surge and a lot of people don't buy it. But it doesn't cost me anything to offer it and sometimes people do buy it.

I did a lot of work for the customer that day. If it came right down to it you could say he didn't need any of it but he sure benefited from it. Just having the GFCI's and carbon monoxide detector could save someones life.

You don't need to rape your customers but you do need to charge enough to cover ALL of your expenses and generate a profit.

 

[77401]

I'm not sure where in my post I implied that I told the customer he needed to buy this stuff. I simply offered it to him and he chose to buy it.

OK Aline, I take back my rant, well some of it, anyway.
But you did say

Never go in and fix the problem right away.

Isnt that Borderline Bait & Switch?
Anyway...
I too will mention dimmers, if its a new house without any, if they have a lot of electronics I might mention the surge protection.
GFCI's I never push. While they can and have saves lives, I have Darwins Award thought process. If someone is stupid enough to pull George Foreman's grill out of the sink while stil plugged in they sort of deserve to get it.
CO2 detectors are an unnecessary gadget.
Remember in the 40's to 60's houses had open flame heaters in the bathroom walls, and open flame heaters on the floors for winter heat. Todays new home the only full time pilot light is a water heater. Now, don't tell me the other "possibilities" for CO2 poisoning. I won't tell you about the "possibility" of a meteor attack or Lightning, or a car missing a turn & ending up in your bedroom, or sink holes, or random drive by shootings.
So may I ask what brand of Dimmers and Surge protectors you carry on your truck for quick installation?
How much do you charge for Furnishing & Installing...
GFCIS
CO2
Surge
SP Dimmers

 

[satcom]

"CO2 detectors are an unnecessary gadget"

The fire company responds to CO calls, try about 20% of their calls are CO related in the winter, 50% or more of those calls they find high levels of CO, almost every city, and township in the area, requires the owner to have a co detector, when any permit is issued, for any type of work building, plumbing, electrical, or even minor work.

Your home does not have to have, any appliances in it, we had a gas leak 1/4 mile away, and our house filled up to explosive level in 5 minutes, barley time to get out, my co detector picked it up before we could smell the gas, i had no idea co detectors worked with gas until that incedent, some gaget.

 

[celtic]

... almost every city, and township in the area, requires the owner to have a co detector, when any permit is issued, for any type of work building, plumbing, electrical, or even minor work.

Your home does not have to have, any appliances in it,....

Are we both in NJ?

I have NEVER had to add CO detectors when doing a job - unless fire protection was part of the job.

Currently, on the 90+ condo project with ALL electric appliances - no CO detectors are required. I personally responded to the inspectors questions.

Has your experience been different???

 

[satcom]

Yes for single family homes, south brunswick township and south of there, your working the north, mail me your fax and i will send a copy of the notice to you, some of the towns are not up to speed as yet.

 

[JES2727]

CO in SB

CO in SB

Yes for single family homes, south brunswick township and south of there, your working the north, mail me your fax and i will send a copy of the notice to you, some of the towns are not up to speed as yet.

This is true.
Pick up a permit app in South Brunswick and/or the surrounding localities and it includes a short form to verify the presence of CO detectors in the residence. And for what its worth (and thats not much), I think it's a good thing. I disagree that CO detectors are an unnecessary gadget.

John

 

[aline]

What I meant by never go in and just fix the problem right away was if you're charging a minimum diagnostic fee and it only takes you ten minutes to find and fix the problem you should spend some time inspecting the rest of the electrical system for other problems.

If you see it's something simple like a loose connection, tripped GFCI or some other quick easy fix why not do an inspection of the rest of the electrical system before fixing the problem. Then you can share the results of the inspection with the customer, show them the amount for the minimum diagnostic fee and repair and give them prices for additional items.

You're giving them more value for the minimum charge than if you just went in and fixed the problem right away, charged them and left. You're also giving yourself the oportunity to sell other things while you're there.

Instead of charging them $130 for a ten minute fix you're charging them $130 for an inspection and a ten minute fix.

Below are two cases where GFCI protection would most likely have prevented a death.

-Two children, ages five and six, were electrocuted in Texas when a plugged-in hair dryer fell into the tub in which they were bathing.

-A three-year-old Kansas girl was electrocuted when she touched a faulty countertop.

I've had some customers that didn't even know what a GFCI was and didn't know they had such things available. Just because some parents might be careless doesn't mean their children should have to pay the price. My 3-year old daughter was in the bathroom with the sink running. She was taking soap and water and rubbing it into the receptacle. When I walked in to see what she was doing there was smoke coming out of the receptacle. The GFCI was tripped and the receptacle was ruined and had to be replaced. I hate to think what might have happened if it wasn't a GFCI receptacle.

A 22 year old man was found dead in his home. Two police officers were sent out to investigate the death. While they were there they both collapsed and had to be taken to the hospital. The cause was carbon monoxide poisening. If a carbon monoxide detector was installed in his home the 22 year old man might still be alive today. They're not that expensive. Cheap insurance if you ask me.

My prices for installing a carbon monixide detector depends on wether I'm installing one at an existing outlet or if I'm running wire as well.

Below are my price for installing these items while I'm there doing other work.

Dual volt carbon monixide & smoke detector $92.68 (wiring not included)

GFCI receptacles $55.30 ea.

Dimmer $45.53 (Depends on the style of dimmer. Some are more.)

Whole house surge power Cutler Hammer Ultra $374.24
Whole house surge phone Cutler Hammer $172.87
Whole house surge cable Cutler Hammer $172.87

Surge strip for computers $67.84 ea.

 

[celtic]

Yes for single family homes, south brunswick township and south of there, your working the north, mail me your fax and i will send a copy of the notice to you, some of the towns are not up to speed as yet.

hmmm...interesting.

Can you scan it and email it?

 

[LarryFine]

I already charge T&M on service calls, but that doesn't solve the scheduling problem. The HO doesn't know how many hours it will take, and either do I.

I think the whole idea behind a minimum time for a service call is to cover yourself for situations where you have allocated a couple of hours for driving/troubleshooting, but the problem turns out the be something that takes way less time.

Jeff, I try to line up work based on how long each job might take, but after the first call, I make sure to give a time range for us to arrive, with a phone call as soon as I have a better idea.