When a customer knows more then you do.

[brian john]

One of the OPs problems is probably just the fact that he is young. It's easy for a 24 year old to look 20. I once worked for a young engineer that had to grow a beard and when I asked him why he showed me a picture without the whiskers ( it was Opy from Andy, yes, he looked about 16).

A young person really does have to prove themselves more than an older person. Me, I just point to my bald head and gray hair and tell them how long it took to get that way.

No matter how we look at it this is still a confidence game.

I was there once, having to prove my worth now at 56 I seem to garner more confidence from my peers.

 

[weressl]

I've been working at a commercial business for the past 13 months doing various jobs. Most of them are installing branch circuits for Motors as well as motor control equipment such as starters and Momentary buttons and such.

There are two employees of the business that somehow managed to get my cell phone number, and they call me whenever they feel "I screwed up".

In the past month I've been told that #8s were too big of a wire. Two pumps were not wired for the correct rotation. That a 3/3R Disconnect was not sealed for outside use(only going for protection from rain). And that I installed a Push/Pull button incorrectly and it was the wrong one.

The last one is the latest one. I got a call at 9am when I was an hour away from their business and I knew there was no problem. I arrived there shortly after the two know it alls had left and found almost everything to be in working order. The push/pull button located by the pump was hit by something and they said that the button (Square D KR8 which is a type 6/13).

I'm just shy of 24 I know I'm young and I know I have a lot to learn in dealing with customers but can someone give me some advice on how to handle the owner and/or the two 'know it all' employees?

There should be a formal handover, including operational test. It is usually part of my Contracts. After that only warranty claims executed. If there is an issue, the Contractor is called. An employee of the Contractor should NEVER be called, unless it is under a warrantee agreement in the original or separate Contract. If you respond without the knowledge of your boss, you have no workman's comp and you or Labor has to go after the Owner if something happens.

On a side note I congratulate you on your willingness to stand behind your work and correct your mistakes.

What was the #8 wire for? Hp/length?

 

[djcrzysounds@yahoo.com]

There should be a formal handover, including operational test. It is usually part of my Contracts. After that only warranty claims executed. If there is an issue, the Contractor is called. An employee of the Contractor should NEVER be called, unless it is under a warrantee agreement in the original or separate Contract. If you respond without the knowledge of your boss, you have no workman's comp and you or Labor has to go after the Owner if something happens.

On a side note I congratulate you on your willingness to stand behind your work and correct your mistakes.

What was the #8 wire for? Hp/length?

First I want to take the time to say thanks to everyone! Your comments and thoughts have definetly helped me to handle myself in an appropriate manner. Yes being 24(just shy of to be critical) I do not know everything however for the making sure I am right there is the handy book called the NEC which I carry as a bible cause if I am unsure the answer(s) are usually there.

Second, If the job was over I would turn everything over however they are installing a pump every 90 days or so.. whenever the fitter can come up and do the piping.

I will always stand behind my work cause I do it right the first time(well I make sure to do it right we all make mistakes from time to time)

and for the final question I beleive it's a 7.5HP or 10HP motor on 208V-3Phase. running about 250 feet from the panel(at most)

 

[weressl]

First I want to take the time to say thanks to everyone! Your comments and thoughts have definetly helped me to handle myself in an appropriate manner. Yes being 24(just shy of to be critical) I do not know everything however for the making sure I am right there is the handy book called the NEC which I carry as a bible cause if I am unsure the answer(s) are usually there.

Second, If the job was over I would turn everything over however they are installing a pump every 90 days or so.. whenever the fitter can come up and do the piping.

I will always stand behind my work cause I do it right the first time(well I make sure to do it right we all make mistakes from time to time)

and for the final question I beleive it's a 7.5HP or 10HP motor on 208V-3Phase. running about 250 feet from the panel(at most)

Remember that NEC is not a design or engineering guide. It is a set of safety rules. It is constantly being revised.

#8 wire would produce the following voltage drops:
7.5HP (24.2A NEC): 3.86% #6 2.43%
10HP (30.8A NEC): 4.92%, #6 3.09%

So if anything your #8 wire was too small to meet the RECOMMENDED voltage drop @ 3%.

 

[iwire]

So if anything your #8 wire was too small to meet the RECOMMENDED voltage drop @ 3%.

Who's recommendation is that?

The NEC suggests and I think ANSI backs up 5% at the equipment and that is in addition to the 5% allowed by the utility.

 

[weressl]

Who's recommendation is that?

The NEC suggests and I think ANSI backs up 5% at the equipment and that is in addition to the 5% allowed by the utility.

II. Branch-Circuit Ratings
210.19 Conductors ? Minimum Ampacity and Size.
(A) Branch Circuits Not More Than 600 Volts.
(1) General.......

FPN No. 4: Conductors for branch circuits as defined in​

Article 100, sized to prevent a voltage drop exceeding
3 percent at the farthest outlet of power, heating, and lighting
loads, or combinations of such loads, and where the
maximum total voltage drop on both feeders and branch
circuits to the farthest outlet does not exceed 5 percent,
provide reasonable efficiency of operation. See FPN No. 2​

of 215.2(A)(3) for voltage drop on feeder conductors.

The OP and my responses were for a branch circuit, feeding a single motor.

The NEC is erroneous to state that this provides a 'reasonable efficiency of operation'. The voltage drop limitation allows the equipment to operate within it's design limits. It is correct that it also has to do with efficiency, but it is NOT the primary reason.

 

[iwire]

to the farthest outlet does not exceed 5 percent,

The connection to the motor is the farthest outlet.


But it really does not matter in the least as it is all design choice.:smile:

If the customer has not provided any specifications there is no issue at all.

 

[iwire]

The NEC is erroneous to state that this provides a 'reasonable efficiency of operation'. The voltage drop limitation allows the equipment to operate within it's design limits. It is correct that it also has to do with efficiency, but it is NOT the primary reason.

That is what is know as a personal opinion.

You have time to put a proposal in to change that wording

 

[weressl]

The connection to the motor is the farthest outlet.


But it really does not matter in the least as it is all design choice.:smile:

If the customer has not provided any specifications there is no issue at all.

The branch circuit IS 3%, not 5%. It is NOT a choice. If an electrician decides to be a designer, then they must abide by the rules.

 

[iwire]

The branch circuit IS 3%, not 5%.

The NEC suggests the farthest outlet not be more then 5% below the nominal voltage. 2% on the feeder 3% on the branch, that is a total of 5%.

It is NOT a choice. If an electrician decides to be a designer, then they must abide by the rules.

Show me the rule, the NEC does not have one for this installation.

 

[weressl]

The NEC suggests the farthest outlet not be more then 5% below the nominal voltage. 2% on the feeder 3% on the branch, that is a total of 5%.

What is single load feeder if not a branch feeder?

 

[iwire]

What is single load feeder if not a branch feeder?

Never heard of a 'branch feeder'

 

[weressl]

Never heard of a 'branch feeder'

Any electrical line is called a feeder. There are mains and there are branches. A main serves distribution and is allowed 2% voltage drop. A distribution feeder serves a groupped load distribution point such as a panelboard or MCC. A branch serves individual loads, or multiples as allowed, from a grouped distribution point. It is alloted 3% voltage drop.

 

[iwire]

Any electrical line is called a feeder. There are mains and there are branches.

I am sorry that is incorrect, please consult NEC Article 100 for the definitions of feeder and branch circuits.

 

[Greg Swartz]

Billing definately reduces the questions...

...Just that employers don't like you spending the time checking answers on their dime. Unless you can bill someone for the questions.

How true.

I tell people before we come out that: If it is our fault, we'll fix it... and for free too. However, if we determine that the problem is not something caused by us, there will be a charge for all the work.

I also have the thought process, that if my guys did not do it right the first time, why should I pay them twice to do it? (There are limitations to this.)

 

[Greg Swartz]

My hero

My hero

This is never a problem for me because I know all there is to know about electrical work.

You have just become my hero! :roll:

 

[weressl]

I am sorry that is incorrect, please consult NEC Article 100 for the definitions of feeder and branch circuits.

Branch Circuit.​

​

​

The circuit conductors between the final​

overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

Branch Circuit, Individual.​

​

​

A branch circuit that supplies​

only one utilization equipment.

Feeder.​

​

​

All circuit conductors between the service equipment,
the source of a separately derived system, or other
power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent​

device.

OK, so the feeder is allowed 2% and the branch circuit is allowed 3%.

 

[weressl]

The connection to the motor is the farthest outlet.


But it really does not matter in the least as it is all design choice.:smile:

If the customer has not provided any specifications there is no issue at all.

So I guess you're calculating your motor circuit conductors to 5%? Must have many happy customers......:grin:

In figure 430.1

Motor branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protection is followed by motor circuit conductor. That sounds to me like branch circuit and the conductors the OP has identified in his posting. Therefore it is subject to the 3% clause. So your interpretation is just plain wrong.​

 

[iwire]

Branch Circuit.​

​

​

The circuit conductors between the final​

overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).

Branch Circuit, Individual.​

​

​

A branch circuit that supplies​

only one utilization equipment.

Feeder.​

​

​

All circuit conductors between the service equipment,
the source of a separately derived system, or other
power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent​

device.

OK, so the feeder is allowed 2% and the branch circuit is allowed 3%.

I intimately familiar with those definitions, you had said "Branch feeder" no such thing exists to the NEC.

Someday it might show that you are human if you actually admitted you made a mistake.

 

[iwire]

So I guess you're calculating your motor circuit conductors to 5%? Must have many happy customers......:grin:

The above statement just serves to prove how detached you are from the real world and how much koolaid you have swallowed from the manufacturers and suppliers.:smile:

I can think of many examples of factory produced equipment where the design has even more VD then 5%.

Therefore it is subject to the 3% clause. So your interpretation is just plain wrong.

Dude, 5% at the furthest point, it can't be any clearer, the motor is the furthest point and per NEC and ANSI C84.1–1989 suggestions should not see more then 5% total drop (10% when you include the utility, actully 12% if you really want to push it)

And again I point out there is no 'clause' there is no rule, I can design it if I choose with 15% drop.

Not saying I would, just that I can.


Check out page 5 of this pdf http://www.pacificpower.net/File/File22465.pdf