When are recessed housings going away?

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nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
It would be great but those lotus lights are about 85-100$ a pop . I like cans myself rather then cut in fixtures i really hate cut in fixtures in a less then perfect celling lol. With the cans you get in during the rough get the lights in and its done and secure.

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Ponchik

Senior Member
Location
CA
Occupation
Electronologist
I have installed something similar (may even be the same units) in my kitchen. It will require a J box when you connect the NM cable to the fixture cable. The cable that comes with the fixture is such a small gauge that you can barely use an orange wire nut to connect it to the NM's conductor. It is stranded and very small gauge that the wire connector will have a very hard time grabbing on to it.

That has been my experience.
 

Fulthrotl

~Autocorrect is My Worst Enema.~

Neat. I did recently install something similar. Made by WAC lighting I think. A trim that could mount over a fixture box or in a regular housing.

I have installed something similar (may even be the same units) in my kitchen. It will require a J box when you connect the NM cable to the fixture cable. The cable that comes with the fixture is such a small gauge that you can barely use an orange wire nut to connect it to the NM's conductor. It is stranded and very small gauge that the wire connector will have a very hard time grabbing on to it.

The ones I linked to, upon further investigation, do have a separate driver/jbox that appears to connect to the fixture with a factory cable. It is small, about 1.5 by 3.5.

I like cans myself rather then cut in fixtures i really hate cut in fixtures in a less then perfect celling lol. With the cans you get in during the rough get the lights in and its done and secure.

Sure, if you dont want to cut them in later, you will need something tacked up in the appropriate location I guess - just sayin these elaborate clunky metal housings could be redesigned a bit. What FT linked seems to be more on the money.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
I doubt they're going away anytime soon. Ultra low profile is ok for glowing disk type illumination but you need the room in the back to cram away LED ballast, optical and mechanical parts for the luminaire.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Neat. I did recently install something similar. Made by WAC lighting I think. A trim that could mount over a fixture box or in a regular housing.

Check out the Eaton SLD4 and SLD6 disk lights. It has a round frosted disk in a frame and lit along the edge with 3 multi-junction LEDs (pcLED SSFL type) in series. Wires stick out to the back of this disc and attaches to the piggy backed LED BALLAST about the size of a cell phone wall charger. My liking about this design is that electrical specs for LED ballast is made available on the label so you can clip off and refit it with the same or smaller size LED ballast. The problem with having to replace the entire fixture is when you have the ballast fail in one fixture, finding a replacement luminaire to match other ones aesthetically can be difficult.
 

Dr Duke

Member
Location
North Dakota USA
I do agree cans could be redesigned a bit. Or maybe even some readily available ones that are specifically for led trims. Maybe like 2"-3" depth instead of 5"-7" like normal. I had to cut in a 5" can the other day, and it was a new fan by Halo I hadn't seen before. Normally they have those push out clips that are terrible. This one had two clips that were very similar to a plastic cut in box. I liked it.
The only thing that scares me about led trims is there are about 2000 versions out there, and they are always improving. So if I trim out a house with one kind, then two years later one fails, are they still going to manufacture that identical one?
 
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steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
Managing heat is one of the most important things when designing LED fixtures. Those might be OK in many instances, but a larger recessed housing probably allows higher lumen outputs and longer life with less light output depreciation.

The better LED fixtures keep the driver heat sink separate from the LED heat sink, because the drivers can operate at higher temps. than the LED's. Not much room to do that in a housing like that.

And if someone covers one of those lights with insulation, I think it could be an issue.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Managing heat is one of the most important things when designing LED fixtures. Those might be OK in many instances, but a larger recessed housing probably allows higher lumen outputs and longer life with less light output depreciation.

Electrofelon's OP link includes an 8" round recessed downlight that is 1.5" thick, 2200 lumens at 3000 degrees K, and it is wet location rated, air tight and rated for direct contact with thermal insulation. There's a 4000 degree K version of the same with an additional 200 lumens.

I find that an interesting accomplishment. . . being air tight / IC rated. The material science keeps leaping . . .
 

MNSparky

Senior Member
Location
Minneapolis, MN
Occupation
Electrical Contractor - 2023 NEC
I still prefer the look of a traditional incandescent trim with an LED lamp.

What's an incandescent trim? :D

We still I'll use cans with baffle trims and incandescent lamps as our base option. LED lamps are an upgrade and LED retrofit trims are also an upgrade. We install a ton of our base options, people just really like that look. Plus I have like 300 BR30s in the warehouse I wanna use up...

I did just recheck pricing just now, the Halo LT56 trims are getting closer to the cost of a baffle trim/incandescent lamp.

Those disc lights are pretty nice, too. Especially for tight spots where there's no room for a can.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
Electrofelon's OP link includes an 8" round recessed downlight that is 1.5" thick, 2200 lumens at 3000 degrees K, and it is wet location rated, air tight and rated for direct contact with thermal insulation. There's a 4000 degree K version of the same with an additional 200 lumens.

I find that an interesting accomplishment. . . being air tight / IC rated. The material science keeps leaping . . .

Let's just be aware that anything around clean/green fads are very hot with patent trolls. People hoard patents for something that's just common intuitive use of prior arts, file patents and patent trolls buy them and sit on them until something becomes a fad or in demand and sue/demand license fees.

Yy0dT60.jpg


What you've got is a roughly 8" round light with a roughly 6" aperture. The thick rim is not decorative. It's a large heat sink. It has what is essentially a circular shaped TV/phone back light sandwiched in between the heatsink and back plate and LEDs illuminate it along the edge in three spots and a low profile ballast is clipped onto the back plate. That's it. Traditional design needs space behind the aperture for optical chamber.

But this thing costs $35 while normal ones that require depth is about 1/3 to 1/4 the price. Also, it's not particularly efficient by any means. comparing 90 CRI versions, the SLD4 3000K is only 56 LPW. the substantially cheaper (also 90 CRI) Home Depot T45 is 71 LPW.

The luminaire, and the box has a Rambus patent stickered, not printed, so perhaps Eaton got patent trolled and I suspect the licensing is the single most expensive component of this luminaire.

For this reason, I would avoid specing a design that forces you to buy expensive patented products and use these if and only when you have to work with existing junction boxes. Gymbal (eyeball) requires mechanical space. Other beam management methods like multi-faceted reflector requires optical chamber. You coudl always convert recessed to surface mount, but not the other way around.

On the back, there is a piggyback LED ballast that says "0.52A DC" (I am not sure if that means the DC component only or if they mean 0.52A RMS. Because... as with most LED ballasts, the regulation along and the directly corresponding flicker mitigation is inferior to fluorescent ballasts and this fixture still contains a fair amount of Iripple, thus flicker index. This luminaire exhibits enough flicker to be detected with a mechanical detector where Philips Advance CFL ballast for 2x13W PL-C do not produce detectable flicker). This LED ballast is a galvanically isolated constant current unidirectional(rippled DC) regulated current power source, which is why it can be wet rated/shower rated. The ballast appears to be set in glue like automotive ignition coil to resist humidity.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
:?

Let's just be aware . . . like automotive ignition coil to resist humidity.

You are quoting me, but nothing you said references what I was talking about. . . You obviously didn't look at the information on the 8" round at the OP's link.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
:?



You are quoting me, but nothing you said references what I was talking about. . . You obviously didn't look at the information on the 8" round at the OP's link.

obviously I did which is why I was able to explain how other products like the Eaton one is similar. The ring around the aperture is not decorative. It's a critical part of the fixture to shed generated heat to the room side and has a fairly substantial surface area with access to unconfined air along the ceiling. That is how the backside can be IC. Not magic.

The Eaton SLD6 is 8" around by 3/4" thick relative to the ceiling and the LED ballast recesses into the space above, including within a 3 1/2" round fixture box. So, very similar.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
I still prefer the look of a traditional incandescent trim with an LED lamp.

Unfortunately those have performance or reliability issues at higher output. They stay operational by having LED burnout avoidance called "thermal management" take over and dim the light or they stay at same output and the ballast or LED fries out. The burnout protection allows full output lights when used for a few minutes at a time or operate continuously at reduced output without blowing up, but they often can not provide the rated output continuously.

Trims enjoy reliability and performance for the technical reason that large metal flange with free access to room side air provides a heat sink for LEDs as well as the transistors in the ballast can bond thermally solid.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
:?:?:blink:

obviously I did which is why I was able to explain how other products like the Eaton one is similar. . .

And a mule is similar to a horse.

Near three times the lumens.

Remote driver.

Your whole thing about heat and trims is obvious. This unit is another step up from the caps I have been generally noting in the commodity marketplace. That "step" is my point. This product has stepped up the light output from a compact form factor that is wet location, air tight and insulation contact rated.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
With LED technology and its small size and low heat, why are housings still so prevalent? Do we need them anymore? Stuff like this seems like a no brainer:

https://www.prolighting.com/brands/lotus-led-lights.html

Seems like this type of stuff would be what we use now, but I have yet to see any such things in the wild. Comments?

I do not think they will every go away entirely, the finished look is too plain to fit in every type of application.

I can't imagine an office building without recessed cans somewhere in regardless of the light source type. Incandescent, fluorescent, HID or LED.
 
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