When are recessed housings going away?

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Electric-Light

Senior Member
And a mule is similar to a horse.

Near three times the lumens.

Remote driver.

Your whole thing about heat and trims is obvious. This unit is another step up from the caps I have been generally noting in the commodity marketplace. That "step" is my point. This product has stepped up the light output from a compact form factor that is wet location, air tight and insulation contact rated.

These two have those same ratings. If you see the real thing, you'll see the ballast is just clipped into place and the wires coming from the LED module and the ballast are crimped together externally. So if you feel compelled, the ballast can be unclipped and relocated. If you remove the ballast, poke a small hole in a ceiling tile, thread the wires, silicone and mate it to a DC 0.52A ballast from the ceiling panel next to it, it would work and you can get away with quite a bit more since it's a Class 2 wiring just like the self install 12v exposed wiring MR16 kit.



14.8W 1215 lm 7.8" 4000K
http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...c_sheets/halo-sld-1200-unv-td518030en-sss.pdf

33W 2400 lm 9" 4000K. Additional heat sink in the back.
https://www.lotusledlights.com/images/Cut_Sheet_Slim_Recessed_LED_8_inch_LY82RCD-English.pdf

About the only difference is whether the bulk of the gut is recessed or room side which determines the size of hole you need to make into the ceiling, but they both depend on a room sided heat sink that makes up the outer 1 1/2" of the room side which obviously increase in area with the diameter.
 

jeff48356

Senior Member
I do agree cans could be redesigned a bit. Or maybe even some readily available ones that are specifically for led trims. Maybe like 2"-3" depth instead of 5"-7" like normal. I had to cut in a 5" can the other day, and it was a new fan by Halo I hadn't seen before. Normally they have those push out clips that are terrible. This one had two clips that were very similar to a plastic cut in box. I liked it.
The only thing that scares me about led trims is there are about 2000 versions out there, and they are always improving. So if I trim out a house with one kind, then two years later one fails, are they still going to manufacture that identical one?

An idea would be to make all cans 6" depth (or the size that fits 2X6 construction). If standardized, they should become cheaper due to less metal having to be used per can.
 

svemike

Member
Location
Sonoma, CA
4-0 J-BOX MOUNT

4-0 J-BOX MOUNT

Let's just be aware that anything around clean/green fads are very hot with patent trolls. People hoard patents for something that's just common intuitive use of prior arts, file patents and patent trolls buy them and sit on them until something becomes a fad or in demand and sue/demand license fees.

Yy0dT60.jpg


What you've got is a roughly 8" round light with a roughly 6" aperture. The thick rim is not decorative. It's a large heat sink. It has what is essentially a circular shaped TV/phone back light sandwiched in between the heatsink and back plate and LEDs illuminate it along the edge in three spots and a low profile ballast is clipped onto the back plate. That's it. Traditional design needs space behind the aperture for optical chamber.

But this thing costs $35 while normal ones that require depth is about 1/3 to 1/4 the price. Also, it's not particularly efficient by any means. comparing 90 CRI versions, the SLD4 3000K is only 56 LPW. the substantially cheaper (also 90 CRI) Home Depot T45 is 71 LPW.

The luminaire, and the box has a Rambus patent stickered, not printed, so perhaps Eaton got patent trolled and I suspect the licensing is the single most expensive component of this luminaire.

For this reason, I would avoid specing a design that forces you to buy expensive patented products and use these if and only when you have to work with existing junction boxes. Gymbal (eyeball) requires mechanical space. Other beam management methods like multi-faceted reflector requires optical chamber. You coudl always convert recessed to surface mount, but not the other way around.

On the back, there is a piggyback LED ballast that says "0.52A DC" (I am not sure if that means the DC component only or if they mean 0.52A RMS. Because... as with most LED ballasts, the regulation along and the directly corresponding flicker mitigation is inferior to fluorescent ballasts and this fixture still contains a fair amount of Iripple, thus flicker index. This luminaire exhibits enough flicker to be detected with a mechanical detector where Philips Advance CFL ballast for 2x13W PL-C do not produce detectable flicker). This LED ballast is a galvanically isolated constant current unidirectional(rippled DC) regulated current power source, which is why it can be wet rated/shower rated. The ballast appears to be set in glue like automotive ignition coil to resist humidity.

The ballast/driver that inserts into the j-box might be considered a "device", and thereby could create over fill capacity, where it was not over with a regular Incan surface fixture. Plus, 90 degree Cent cable would be required, due to reported 100 degree Cent circuit board temps. Pre- 1996 wiring.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
The ballast/driver that inserts into the j-box might be considered a "device",

It "might be" considered a device, but for the Article 100 Definition of Luminaire.

Now, that's not to take away from your point about the driver taking up ceiling outlet box cubic inches. That obviously is part of placing the driver inside the box. . . but I don't see a way to calculate the effect in the language of the Code.

due to reported 100 degree Cent circuit board temps. Pre- 1996 wiring.

A "100 degree Centigrade?" Can you provide a document? I believe most solid state devices start turning into green goo at around 135 degrees Fahrenheit.
 

fisherelectric

Senior Member
Location
Northern Va
I can see a time in next 15 years or so when you'll have to explain to younger folks what incandescent type recessed fixtures were just like you have to explain how families used to share one phone line with dial phones mounted on the kitchen wall.
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
I can see a time in next 15 years or so when you'll have to explain to younger folks what incandescent type recessed fixtures were just like you have to explain how families used to share one phone line with dial phones mounted on the kitchen wall.
And a hand cranked magneto to "ring up" the operator. :)

mobile
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
Electrofelon's OP link includes an 8" round recessed downlight that is 1.5" thick, 2200 lumens at 3000 degrees K, and it is wet location rated, air tight and rated for direct contact with thermal insulation. There's a 4000 degree K version of the same with an additional 200 lumens.

I find that an interesting accomplishment. . . being air tight / IC rated. The material science keeps leaping . . .

That's not bad, although they don't give a lot of detail on the how bright they still are at end of life, or how fast the brightness drops off.

They don't show it in the photo that was posted, but the driver is still in a separate box. Makes sense to keep the LED's cool.

Untitled.jpg
Lithonia makes very similar fixtures also.
 

Electric-Light

Senior Member
A "100 degree Centigrade?" Can you provide a document? I believe most solid state devices start turning into green goo at around 135 degrees Fahrenheit.

huh? Most ballasts are rated for use with case temperature up to 70C/158F and those intended for high ambient up to 55C are rated for case temperature of 90C/194F. The junction temperature will always be higher than the case. One of the ways they increase the usable temperature is improve the packaging so to reduce the junction to case difference thus allowing higher case temperature. Running a high case temperature also allows more radiant cooling to take place.

That's not bad, although they don't give a lot of detail on the how bright they still are at end of life, or how fast the brightness drops off.
Specifically for LEDs, it's 30% degradation during the rated life unless stated otherwise and that is not to say that they can not color shift or fail during that time.

They don't show it in the photo that was posted, but the driver is still in a separate box. Makes sense to keep the LED's cool
Most of the heat generation is done in the LEDs. The ballast efficiency can be anywhere from 75-95%. You generally need a physically larger ballast to get good regulation, long life and good line side power quality. The compact ballast on Eaton SLD passes the minimum power quality requirements, but output regulation is terrible compared to external CFL ballast like ICF2S13 and I measured 22% ripple (I AC rms / I DC) * 100. You need a fair sized capacitor at the ballast to eliminate flicker unless you're providing 3 phase to each fixture.
 

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
Engineer
Most of the heat generation is done in the LEDs. The ballast efficiency can be anywhere from 75-95%. You generally need a physically larger ballast to get good regulation, long life and good line side power quality. The compact ballast on Eaton SLD passes the minimum power quality requirements, but output regulation is terrible compared to external CFL ballast like ICF2S13 and I measured 22% ripple (I AC rms / I DC) * 100. You need a fair sized capacitor at the ballast to eliminate flicker unless you're providing 3 phase to each fixture.

My point was that its better to keep the driver heat sink separate from the LED heat sink, so the drivers don't heat up the LED's.

The LED's are normally designed to run very cool - often barely above room temp of 70 or 80 F. They feel cool to the touch even when running. While drivers typically run hotter.
 
With LED technology and its small size and low heat, why are housings still so prevalent? Do we need them anymore? Stuff like this seems like a no brainer:

https://www.prolighting.com/brands/lotus-led-lights.html

Seems like this type of stuff would be what we use now, but I have yet to see any such things in the wild. Comments?


Recessed housings will go away when the Tesla is reincarnated and the technology is strictly wireless!!
 
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