When doodles go bad

When doodles go bad

  • Omit the receptacle

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Place the receptacle in the adjacent area "behind the sink"

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Cut the receptacle in anyway, code is code

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Surface-mount a receptacle on the face of the tile

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
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Ranges and sinks are equals by 210.52(C)(4). They're interchangeable.

Analogy: I think that the distance between the sink and the wall behind it is sort of a "code single-pole switch." Either it's on, or off. In my case, the switch was on; the distance in the center of the sink to the wall was over 18".

I think this suddenly makes the entire countertop behind the sink need to adhere to the rest of 210.52(C). By Figure 210.52, the sink suddenly disappears from sight, and is no longer a break in the counter space.
 
Figure 210.52 in the NECH has a diagram almost identical to the one George posted. Looks to me like George is going to have to install a receptacle in the corner somehow since the sink is more than 18" from the corner.
 
charlie b said:
George, you have the 18 inch dimension at the wrong location. Compare your sketch to Figure 210.52. In the NEC Figure, the 18 inch dimension (designated in the Figure as "X") goes to the corner.
Click to expand...
True. What I was attempting to convey was that my original thinking was that the area on the sides of Figure 210.52 constituted the end of one counter space; then there is a small counter space in the corner, when the distance is barely over 18"; and then there is another counter space running along the other side, a mirror of the first counter space. There would be a void between these counter spaces behind the sink.

For example, if X = 20", then there would be a required outlet in that immediate corner probably around four inches or less along each wall of the corner. There would be voids surrounding it that would be what (C)(4) would call "behind the sink, unusable as wall space."

In your figure, the distance between the corner point and the midpoint of the hypotenuse of your blue triangle is about 6 inches (8.5 divided by the square root of 2). That means that the line segments that you show as 18 inches should be shown as 12 inches.
Click to expand...
You judge rough sketches harshly, sir! :D

If you take a tape measure, extend it 18" behind the sink, and slide it all the way to the left, it strikes the wall 8.5" from the corner of the wall. Repeat sliding to the right, and it strikes the wall 8.5" from the corner. Add these two lines together, and you have 17" of wall space in question.

Is that what you're seeing?
 
You misunderstood me, George. I wasn't judging your sketch nor the accuracy by which it modeled the actual installation. I was comparing it to Figure 210.52. What I meant to convey is that if the distance that you show as 18 inches was, in the actual installation, more than 12, then the NEC would have required a receptacle.

You said it was a question of fact as to whether a distance was, or was not, over 18 inches. All I am saying is that the 18 inches has to be measured from the sink to the corner, not from the edge of the sink to a point 8.5 inches from the corner.

If your sketch is accurate, then the NEC requires an outlet behind the sink. And it's not even close. The sink could be 5.9 inches closer to the wall, and it would still need an outlet behind it.

Am I being more clear this time?
 
Okay, Charlie, I get what you're saying.

My thought was, drawing it exactly the way I did would eliminate the other thought I was kicking around: If the length measured 9" (instead of 17" around the corner), then someone might say "Hey, that's less than 12" of countertop."

That idea makes this even more fuzzy! :D
 
How deep is the backsplash? 1" marble/granite + 1/2" rock gets a box screwed flush with the framing...
 
Well, I hope the person plugging in the radio doesn't accidently hit those big paddle type faucet handles that would spray full pressure water into the hot deep fat fryer causing a fire to break out and knocking the knife out of the knife rack right next to the recpt and hitting the HOT terminal so while burning and getting shocked at the same time could mudder their last words" at least it passed inspection"

frank
 
I know it would be required to be ground fault protected. GFCI's have been known to fail. I think I could convince any inspector in our jurisdiction to omit the receptacle and or tag the job if one was there, based on the idea that it would be a safety issue. Even among homeowners (electricians not so much), it is a rare person who will run an extension cord in such a way that it could fall into water that they will have their hands in. That being said, why encourage someone to put an electrical appliance in a place where it is conceivable, even likely, that it could come into contact with water. That is kinda like putting in a receptacle beside the tub for the microwave so that the HO can nuke some popcorn while they are bathing.
 
m73214 said:
I assumed it was a tile counter top.....
Click to expand...

Just so you know, I initially thought wall space and when I read your post I thought to myself '"duh, what was I thinking?" I must be too easily influenced. :D
 
georgestolz said:
So, now what I'm thinking is...



The entire area becomes a countertop as though the sink doesn't even exist.
Click to expand...
Any thoughts on this? I thought I had an epiphany when it occurred to me. Perhaps everyone already knew this but me? :oops:
 
IMO, you can't omit a required outlet cuz you don't have a decent or easy place to install it. What do you do when you have an island with the counter top extending over 6"? You still have to install an outlet correct? I reckon I would check with the AHJ & see what help he/she can be.
 
If I am stating the obvious, and not getting that everybody has already gotten this and moved on, feel free to chime in and say so.

I used to believe that the outlet had to be in that portion of the wall, where the distance was greater than 18" from the sink. As in, the receptacle had to be in that exact area, the purple box in the elevation below:
(The purple box is dead center of the corner. The picture is like a snapshot taken from your knees, looking straighit at the corner.)

This is where I thought my receptacle had to be, when I started this thread.

Given the overwhelming percentage of people voting for "Omit the receptacle", I imagine most people here are envisioning the same thing.

What I believe now is...
Figure21052color.jpg

The purple and blue areas in the figure become one counterspace when the distance becomes over 18". Which means the receptacles can be outside the purple box (1st picture). They just need to be installed every 4' along the entire countertop, and we pretend the sink doesn't even exist, when laying out the receptacles.

Therefore, there is plenty of room for my receptacle, immediately under the window, on either side of the load bearing studs.

Agreed?

edit for clarity and to enlarge a picture
 
i hate to barge in here this late of disscussion here ,,

i have a question but i am not sure if this was been disscussed or not.
so bear with me for a sec,, thanks


the question is that when you were mesuring from corner edge but the real question how you can mesure from the point where to start on the edge of sink by using the back end or front end of sink if mounted in corner.

thanks for your time

Merci , Marc

p.s. if the answer come up wrong plese do kindly explain this to me
 
Marc, better late than never! :)

I am going to assume that you mean, "When the distance between the sink and the corner are less than 18" (making the sink a seperation between two counter spaces), how do you measure the distance from the sink for the receptacles beside the sink?"

What I do is:
  • Determine how far away from the corner the sink is. (Say, 16")
  • I measure back that distance, make a mark, and confirm that I am the correct distance from the corner by measuring straight to each wall.
  • I measure along where the sink is going to be, 18" from the center of the sink, so I have the 36" sink drawn on the floor.
  • Draw lines straight back, in line with each side of the sink, mark on the wall.
  • Measure 24" along the wall, and install a receptacle within 24" of the edge of the sink.
 
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