When "existing installation" becomes not

[Twoskinsoneman]

Is there anything in the NEC that determines when a branch circuit loses it's "existing installation" qualification? I would assume it's an ahj call. For a 3 wire hard wired oven, if I change it from hard wired to cord and plug and receptacle is it still "existing installation"? Thanks

 

[Hv&Lv]

Existing installation would be any wiring or devices that were installed before any regulations affected said installation.
So if you change the oven to three wire from hardwired, you would have to install a new receptacle. New stove receptacles are required to be four wire.

with that being said…
I have witnessed AHJs allow it because there has to be so much demo done to install a new compliant circuit.

 

[infinity]

I would assume it's an ahj call. For a 3 wire hard wired oven, if I change it from hard wired to cord and plug and receptacle is it still "existing installation"?

Isn't the 3 wire branch circuit still existing? If the branch circuit conductors were there before you changed the cord and plug it's existing.

 

[rc/retired]

Isn't the 3 wire branch circuit still existing? If the branch circuit conductors were there before you changed the cord and plug it's existing.

Absolutely!

Ron

 

[LarryFine]

I agree that changing an 'existing installation' from hard-wired to receptacle or receptacle to hard-wired does not create a 'new installation'.

 

[kwired]

I agree that changing an 'existing installation' from hard-wired to receptacle or receptacle to hard-wired does not create a 'new installation'.

With the assumption that whatever was originally there was code compliant.

Example if one had 8-2 NM cable instead of 8-3, now you have something that most likely was never NEC compliant to begin with, unless the original oven never utilized a neutral conductor and the new oven doesn't use a neutral either, though technically you should be using a 6-50 receptacle instead of a 10-50 if there is no neutral.

 

[electrofelon]

. New stove receptacles are required to be four wire.
.

They are? We find the "existing branch circuit"
allowance to bond the frame to the grounded conductor in 250.140 & 142.

 

[kwired]

They are? We find the "existing branch circuit"
allowance to bond the frame to the grounded conductor in 250.140 & 142.

If you are moving the load location or extending the circuit (like maybe moving the supplying load center) NEC isn't really clear and kind of is up to whoever is AHJ.

 

[Hv&Lv]

They are? We find the "existing branch circuit"
allowance to bond the frame to the grounded conductor in 250.140 & 142.

My understanding is when you change from hardwired and install an outlet for cord and plug, you are “modifying“ the circuit, thereby the need to bring it to code.

Although I could see the argument all your doing is changing the receptacle..

So your saying you can install a new circuit for a range with three wires And be compliant??

Hey, might as well.. how many remove the manufacturers bond?

 

[LarryFine]

So your saying you can install a new circuit for a range with three wires And be compliant??

Nobody has said that. We're saying that adding or removing a receptacle is not a "new circuit."

 

[kwired]

My understanding is when you change from hardwired and install an outlet for cord and plug, you are “modifying“ the circuit, thereby the need to bring it to code.

Although I could see the argument all your doing is changing the receptacle..

So your saying you can install a new circuit for a range with three wires And be compliant??

Hey, might as well.. how many remove the manufacturers bond?

I have run into mobile home before with bad neutral in the feeder, and they had different items throughout the house burn out when they happened to unplug their dryer - neutral to frame bond in dryer (that should have been removed when installed) was carrying the neutral for the whole house in that situation and they opened it when unplugging the dryer.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I know no one is saying this but kind of the same thing.
So I guess we can replace an existing receptacle with in six feet of a sink in a kitchen and not have to upgrade it GFCI or AFCI?
If you install a receptacle that was once hard wired you should have to bring it up to code.

 

[electrofelon]

My understanding is when you change from hardwired and install an outlet for cord and plug, you are “modifying“ the circuit, thereby the need to bring it to code.

Although I could see the argument all your doing is changing the receptacle..

So your saying you can install a new circuit for a range with three wires And be compliant??

Hey, might as well.. how many remove the manufacturers bond?

I was kinda nitpicking. The NEC doesn't say you "need a 4 wire recep for a range", it says when u can and can't bond the frame to the grounded conductor.

 

[tthh]

Personally I would not deem changing from a hardwired install to a cord and plug to trigger an upgrade.

But, it is up to the AHJ.

Few years back I was doing some friends and family work. Relocating the panel from the kitchen to the back porch. The local POCO also wanted me to use a new meter pan which they provided. When we pulled the permit, I asked if either the panel relo or the meter pan change was going to trigger an upgrade to AFCI and they said not unless you upgrade the size of the incoming service. Totally reasonable.

 

[rc/retired]

Personally I would not deem changing from a hardwired install to a cord and plug to trigger an upgrade.

But, it is up to the AHJ.

Few years back I was doing some friends and family work. Relocating the panel from the kitchen to the back porch. The local POCO also wanted me to use a new meter pan which they provided. When we pulled the permit, I asked if either the panel relo or the meter pan change was going to trigger an upgrade to AFCI and they said not unless you upgrade the size of the incoming service. Totally reasonable.

Even if the relocated panel was farther than 6'?

Ron

 

[ptonsparky]

I know no one is saying this but kind of the same thing.
So I guess we can replace an existing receptacle with in six feet of a sink in a kitchen and not have to upgrade it GFCI or AFCI?
If you install a receptacle for an appliance that was once hard wired, you should have to bring it up to code.

Not the same. Codes require replacement of existing receptacles be upgraded to GFCI/AFCI protection in most residential locations.

FIFY

 

[James L]

Not the same. Codes require replacement of existing receptacles be upgraded to GFCI/AFCI protection in most residential locations.

FIFY

I think that was his point.
Receptacle change in bedroom the same as switching to receptacle at range, methinks.

I wouldn't

 

[tthh]

Even if the relocated panel was farther than 6'?

Ron

I don't remember...it was probably close to 6' anyway. The townhouse had a shed/porch area just off the back of the townhouse and they wanted to put a door on that just outside the back door of the house rather than having to walk around the back. The service entrace cable came in though that area, so we were going to move the panel. In the end, they just moved and we never got to it

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Not the same. Codes require replacement of existing receptacles be upgraded to GFCI/AFCI protection in most residential locations.

FIFY

Depending on the year your in 2020/ 2023.
The code requires all receptacles within six feet of a sink to be GFCI protected in kitchen. Unless I'm understanding it wrong.

The code requires all receptacles to be GFCI protected in kitchen. Unless I'm understanding it wrong.

 

[mtnelect]

May be this attachment might help explain.