When is sign lighting not a sign?

[LarryFine]

Do storefront incandescent-equipped goose-neck sign lights require a disconnect as per Art. 600? The sign is really the painted wall surface, not the lights, so it seems that the sign itself is not electric, and thus 600 does not apply.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I agree

 

[sandsnow]

Nope, lighting not part of the sign.

Unless the inspector is the one in this post

 

[celtic]

Re: When is sign lighting not a sign?

The sign is really the painted wall surface, not the lights, so it seems that the sign itself is not electric, and thus 600 does not apply.

I say YES -600 applies.

600.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation of conductors and equipment for electric signs and outline lighting as defined in Article 100.

Article 100:

Electric Sign.
A fixed, stationary, or portable self-contained, electrically illuminated utilization equipment with words or symbols designed to convey information or attract attention.

Outline Lighting.
An arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting to outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

600 applies to "outline lighting" also, which is what you seem to be describing.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Re: When is sign lighting not a sign?

The sign is really the painted wall surface, not the lights, so it seems that the sign itself is not electric, and thus 600 does not apply.

I say YES -600 applies.

600.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation of conductors and equipment for electric signs and outline lighting as defined in Article 100.

Article 100:

Electric Sign.
A fixed, stationary, or portable self-contained, electrically illuminated utilization equipment with words or symbols designed to convey information or attract attention.

Outline Lighting.
An arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting to outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

600 applies to "outline lighting" also, which is what you seem to be describing.

OK fine and if a street light happens to shine on a sign then i guess it needs comply too.

 

[LarryFine]

Electric sign:

Outline lighting:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Re: When is sign lighting not a sign?

Do storefront incandescent-equipped goose-neck sign lights require a disconnect as per Art. 600? The sign is really the painted wall surface, not the lights, so it seems that the sign itself is not electric, and thus 600 does not apply.

If this light was up before the sign would it need to comply

 

[iwire]

Outline lighting:

Larry I agree that is one kind of outline lighting but we have to use the NEC definition which IMO is surprisingly broad.

It does not even have to be a sign, only has to call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Outline lighting:

Larry I agree that is one kind of outline lighting but we have to use the NEC definition which IMO is surprisingly broad.

It does not even have to be a sign, only has to call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

Guess my house is in violation.And at x mas i have major violations.

 

[bikeindy]

Outline lighting:

Larry I agree that is one kind of outline lighting but we have to use the NEC definition which IMO is surprisingly broad.

It does not even have to be a sign, only has to call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

Guess my house is in violation.And at x mas i have major violations.

I agree with Iwire here. Jim again you fail to realize that your christmass lights are not in viotation since they are pluged in therefor they fall under exception #2, unless you have hardwired them in and leave them up year round. But then if you have them on a switch you are covered by the disconnecting means stated in art 600.

 

[infinity]

With literal wording of the definition of outline lighting, it's a stretch to say that an incandescent light over a sign is to "outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window." IMO an disconnect is not required, but if it must have a disconnect, a $2 breaker lock will suffice.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: When is sign lighting not a sign?

Do storefront incandescent-equipped goose-neck sign lights require a disconnect as per Art. 600? The sign is really the painted wall surface, not the lights, so it seems that the sign itself is not electric, and thus 600 does not apply.

If this light was up before the sign would it need to comply

The sign is already painted and finished, and we are about to install the lights.

Questions:

A) How does the order of existance affect this; or more specifically, why should it be allowed to, which leads to:

B) How do I prove which came first, and why wouldn't everyone claim that which allows the easier installation?

 

[LarryFine]

Outline lighting:

Larry I agree that is one kind of outline lighting but we have to use the NEC definition which IMO is surprisingly broad.

It does not even have to be a sign, only has to call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

No, but it does have to utilize electricity, which our sign does not. I find it hard to believe that the requirement for a disconnect depends upon what the light shines on.

If one has a light illuminating the facade of a building, no disconnect is needed. Now, erect a sign in the light's pathway, and a disconnect has to be added. That's weird!

 

[celtic]

Re: When is sign lighting not a sign?

OK fine and if a street light happens to shine on a sign then i guess it needs comply too.

Keep reaching...

"Happens to shine" is not even close to "an arrangement... to outline or call attention to certain features.."

Come on, that's really a stretching it - don't you think?

 

[celtic]

What IF....we take into account

600.3
(B) Outline Lighting.
Outline lighting shall not be required to be listed as a system when it consists of listed luminaires (lighting fixtures) wired in accordance with Chapter 3.

How does this change the disco requirements?

600.6 Disconnects.
Each sign and outline lighting system....

If your goosenecks are not part of a "system", do they meet the disco. requirements.
Yes?
No?


I think I may be changing my position to Larry's question! (and maybe having some crow for dessert)

 

[iwire]

No, but it does have to utilize electricity, which our sign does not. !

I don't think the letters have to use electricity to be an electric sign or outline lighting to the NEC.

Weird sure are we really surprised. :wink:

I do not spend much time in 600 (OK none :wink: ), once I saw this thread I looked at it and this is what I see when I read it using Charlie's rules. (Read it without looking for a particular outcome)

After reading the scope of Article 600.

600.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation of conductors and equipment for electric signs and outline lighting as defined in Article 100.

Article 100

Outline Lighting. An arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting to outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

and taking that in combined with this...

600.3(B) Outline Lighting. Outline lighting shall not be required to be listed as a system when it consists of listed luminaires (lighting fixtures) wired in accordance with Chapter 3.

your

aimed at a certain feature of a building (the letters) is indeed an outline lighting to the NEC.

600.6 Disconnects.
Each sign and outline lighting system,....

IMO A disconect would be required, the only question I have is the term system.

Is what you installed consider to be an 'un-listed' lighting system'??

Keep in mind this disconnecting means could be a lockout device at the controller.

600.6(A)(2) Within Sight of the Controller. The following shall apply for signs or outline lighting systems operated by electronic or electromechanical controllers located external to the sign or outline lighting system:

(1)The disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located within sight of the controller or in the same enclosure with the controller.

(2)The disconnecting means shall disconnect the sign or outline lighting system and the controller from all ungrounded supply conductors.

(3)The disconnecting means shall be designed so that no pole can be operated independently and shall be capable of being locked in the open position.

When it's all said and done is it a big deal to provide a lock out means at the controller?

 

[bikeindy]

When it's all said and done is it a big deal to provide a lock out means at the controller?

Exactly my point. This is not a big ordeal, Ask yourself why they might want this done and I bet you can come up with a half dozen good reasons to lock out even the lighting you have here larry.

 

[neonjoe]

When we install an externally illuminated sign, such as dimensional letters, wood signs, or even painted signs, the lighting is considered by all of the 10 or so AHJ's in our area to be part of the sign and it must have a disconnect. That is, within sight of the sign and within 50' of the sign.

Though outline lighting is broadly defined in the NEC, when we speak of it in the industry, we are generally referring to neon border tubing, which as a system doesn't have to be listed. The neon tubing doesn't have to be listed, but all components have to be listed, and naturally the installation must comply with all pertinent articles of the NEC.

I do not spend much time in 600 (OK none :wink: )......

Sorry to say, most sign techs that I know spend little time anywhere else.

 

[LarryFine]

Neon Joe, I'd really appreciate your opinion on this discussion. Disconnect or no?

First of all, this is not a big deal, just fun. This thread is about (what else?) the principle of the thing. To me, outline lighting is lighting that follows the shapes of letters, logos, the sign itself, etc., and not lights mounted away from the sign that merely illuminate the outline; that's silly.

What about the typical pair of cast lampholders attached to the ends of conduit arms with (illegal unless they're upsized) conduit bodies, where the splices are made? Would these require a disco? An electric sign is not the same as an externally-illuminated sign, at least to me.

The EMT feeding the group of three goosenecks, very similar to Bob's pic, terminates in a blanked single-gang cast box, with liq-tite out the other end and into the round boxes on the tails of the goosenecks. It would be simple indeed to install a switch and WP cover on this box.

This discussion is similar to state car-inspection disagreements. It's just as illegal to fail something improperly as it is to pass it improperly. An ideal electrical installation contains everything needed to be legal, safe, and functional, but without waste and unnecessary redundancy.

If the inspector requests it, I will of course put in the switch, but not without a (friendly) fight.

 

[neonjoe]

Neon Joe, I'd really appreciate your opinion on this discussion. Disconnect or no?

First of all, this is not a big deal, just fun. This thread is about (what else?) the principle of the thing. To me, outline lighting is lighting that follows the shapes of letters, logos, the sign itself, etc., and not lights mounted away from the sign that merely illuminate the outline; that's silly.

What about the typical pair of cast lampholders attached to the ends of conduit arms with (illegal unless they're upsized) conduit bodies, where the splices are made? Would these require a disco? An electric sign is not the same as an externally-illuminated sign, at least to me.

The EMT feeding the group of three goosenecks, very similar to Bob's pic, terminates in a blanked single-gang cast box, with liq-tite out the other end and into the round boxes on the tails of the goosenecks. It would be simple indeed to install a switch and WP cover on this box.

If the inspector requests it, I will of course put in the switch, but not without a (friendly) fight.

To me, outline lighting can be more than just sign related. When I install neon border tubing around the roof of a building or around storefront windows, it is strictly accent lighting, nothing to do with signage. On the other hand I wouldn't consider the two examples you mentioned above as outline lighting. What is the difference between lighting that lights a sidewalk and the same that lights a building or a sign?

Naturally, I'm not near as knowledgeable on the code as you electricians are, and so I was not aware that a splice made in a conduit body, upsized or not, was legal. Back when I was doing billboards, I just figured we 'got away with it'.

When I think about it, as you stated, the externally illuminated sign doesn't fit the NEC definition of an electric sign. The lights are not part of the sign body. Had I known this, I still wouldn't argue with the inspector who insisted on a disconnect, because it's one less thing I have to be concerned about when I'm 30' or so up in the air. So, yes, a disconnect is an inexpensive way to add protection to the service tech, and should be included in every installation.

On a side note, the history of the relationship between AHJ's and sign installers, at least in my area (Cincinnati), is relatively short. My first inspection happened in the mid to late 70's, when I learned the difference between 40 Romex connectors and 40 MC connectors, the hard way. Before that, we were on our own. I was already installing disconnects in the signs I installed for 2 reasons. The first being as stated above. The close second reason - I didn't feel like climbing down off the ladder, or out of the ceiling, walking all the way to the back of the store just to turn the sign off to change out a transformer or whatever.