When is sign lighting not a sign?

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LarryFine said:
If the inspector requests it, I will of course put in the switch, but not without a (friendly) fight.
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Lets see. A switch adds perhaps $2 worth of parts and 5 minutes of labor.

If you know the inspector is going to gig you for it, why would you waste the time and money to fight it after the fact and not just put it in up front?

If it is a big deal, why not bring it up in writing to the inspector's boss and ask for his opinion after laying out your thinking to him.

I think under the broad definition it qualifies as outline lighting.
 
petersonra said:
If you know the inspector is going to gig you for it, why would you waste the time and money to fight it after the fact and not just put it in up front?
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As I said, it's the principle, not the cost.* They are also photocell-controlled, so service would need to be done in the dark for them to be energized anyway.

I see this as any other group of exterior light fixtures, not as a sign. Just about every electric sign I see has a switch under a WP cover on the side or bottom.

That they illuminate paint with lettering rather than one color doesn't alter the fact that the most intensive service they could possibly see would be bulb changes.


*Our work is supposed to be fun, right?
 
LarryFine said:
As I said, it's the principle, not the cost.* They are also photocell-controlled, so service would need to be done in the dark for them to be energized anyway.

I see this as any other group of exterior light fixtures, not as a sign. Just about every electric sign I see has a switch under a WP cover on the side or bottom.

That they illuminate paint with lettering rather than one color doesn't alter the fact that the most intensive service they could possibly see would be bulb changes.


*Our work is supposed to be fun, right?
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The first thing I do when servicing a photocell controlled sign is cover the photocell. Neon and fluorescent lit signs have to be energized to troubleshoot. Sometimes the photocell or time clock is as far away as the panel, depending on the sign construction. Installing a disconnect, to me, is like using my turn signal. It has become habit to use it without thinking whether I need to or not. If the sign has electric to it, I switch it, whether it's incandescent, fluorescent, or neon. Or those cute little light emitting diodes.
 
neonjoe said:
The first thing I do when servicing a photocell controlled sign is cover the photocell. Neon and fluorescent lit signs have to be energized to troubleshoot. Sometimes the photocell or time clock is as far away as the panel, depending on the sign construction. Installing a disconnect, to me, is like using my turn signal. It has become habit to use it without thinking whether I need to or not. If the sign has electric to it, I switch it, whether it's incandescent, fluorescent, or neon. Or those cute little light emitting diodes.
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I'll buy that. My question here is does a gooseneck fixture need a disconnect switch for the purpose of changing bulbs? There's nothing else to service that any ordinary fixture doesn't have.
 
I'll buy that. My question here is does a gooseneck fixture need a disconnect switch for the purpose of changing bulbs? There's nothing else to service that any ordinary fixture doesn't have.
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Hi Larry,

After reading 600.6 and associated code sections, I would have to say, yes. I believe the system of gooseneck fixtures that outline and illuminate the sign need a disconnect.
 
From Art. 100:
Outline Lighting. An arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting to outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.
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To me, that means these:

highland1.jpg
freds88.jpg


And these:
palmtree_outline.jpg
BL-2_copy.jpg
 
Now, let's look at the kind of fixtures we're talking about:

CG60051.jpg
gooseneck_box.jpg



I find it hard to bgelieve that placing these over a plain wall is okay, but the moment one paints lettering on the wall, we have to add a disconnect switch.
 
I have to agree with Larry. It seems a bit of a contradiction to be required to disconnect goosenecks when lighting a sign, but not when lighting a sidewalk.

If these fixtures can be defined as outline lighting, then I can't think of an arrangement of light fixtures that isn't outline lighting, including parking lot lights that may happen to illuminate a section of a building, or even just the parking lot which, by the way, is a feature.

From Art. 100:
"Outline Lighting. An arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting to outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window."

In the broadest sense of the definition, every time we turn on "an arrangement" of lights we are calling "attention to certain features". That's one of the things lights do. And, according to the definition, "the shape of a building or the decoration of a window" are just 2 examples of features.

I'm also going to take your advice, Larry, and on the next occasion have a "friendly" fight with my local inspector.*

"*Our work is supposed to be fun, right?" - Larry Fine
 
Outline Lighting. An arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting to outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.

What about flag lighting? Does it fall into category of Outline Lighting? I suspect there are a lot of incorrect installations out there if it does.

Would someone define certain features for me?
 
I find it hard to bgelieve that placing these over a plain wall is okay, but the moment one paints lettering on the wall, we have to add a disconnect switch.__________________
Larry B. Fine
Master Electrician
Richmond, VA
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I agree. If this requires a disconnect than why don't all light fixtures require them?
 
infinity said:
I agree. If this requires a disconnect than why don't all light fixtures require them?
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We are getting there.

Fluorescents will be required to have a disconnecting means in 2008.

I stand by my previous post.

IMO Per the NEC definitions / rules those goose necks are sign lighting and must follow Article 600.

I was wondering about flag lighting as well.
 
I don't think there's any way I'm requiring a switch for this type of illumination.

For one, whats the real purpose of the disconnect code?
I'd say so a sign repair man can work on a sign without worring about a timer kicking in or someone just turning the sign on. Most of the time these sign guys aren't really "electricians". Other times even if they were, the signs have high voltage transfomers or ballast, or confusing wiring running back and forth that can multiply the danger.

If you're hit with a violation, a simple push switch on the canopy would be a disconnect.
 
russ said:
Most of the time these sign guys aren't really "electricians".
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I think that may be the point of required disconnects at signs, non qualified service personal.

Besides, if we actually read the article 600 requirements we find a lockout device at the controller would meet the requirements. :)
 
russ said:
Most of the time these sign guys aren't really "electricians". Other times even if they were, the signs have high voltage transfomers or ballast, or confusing wiring running back and forth that can multiply the danger.
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You're right. We're not really electricians. Even in the 60's when I was a member of Local 212, I was a "B" member, requiring and receiving no formal education, nor was I making anywhere near the $4.75/hr my brother the journeyman electrician was making. Nor did I, or do I today, expect to. Being a sign service tech is not rocket science and the education required is nothing like what you guys need. The fact is, I love what I do.

I think the main reason the disconnect is required is because most signs are so far away from the source and in a lot of cases, the service tech has to be inside the sign to troubleshoot. It's comforting to know that I'm in control when surrounded by neon transformers. A lockout switch gives me that control, but when troubleshooting, neon in particular, the sign (or outline lighting) may have to be turned on several times during the process, and a switch on the sign makes it that much easier.
 
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dlhoule said:
Outline Lighting. An arrangement of incandescent lamps or electric-discharge lighting to outline or call attention to certain features such as the shape of a building or the decoration of a window.
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I take this to mean lighting tubes (neon, fluorescent, etc.) or rows of incandescents (like the marquees above) that follow the edges of building corners, openings, etc. (these are the 'certain features'), and not merely standard lighting that happens to illuminate these 'features'.

What about flag lighting? Does it fall into category of Outline Lighting? I suspect there are a lot of incorrect installations out there if it does.
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I say no, if you're referring to ground- or building-mounted lighting fixtures that are aimed at flags, such as this:
Polaris12.jpg


Would someone define certain features for me?
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Ooh, ooh! Pick me, pick me!

I'd say 'certain features' again refers to building edges, window openings, roof lines, ledges, and the like. To me, the difference is whether the illuminated 'sign' or 'feature' in question IS the light source, or is merely the light destination.

This is clearly a sign that requires a disconnect:

manitoulights22.jpg


while this one is not, and does not:

snow-sign-lights-hr.jpg


I will add that there would be no harm in having a disconnect where one is not required, of course, but this is a pair of luminaires, and not a 'lighting system' per se, like a row of sockets in a strip would be.
 
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LarryFine said:
I take this to mean lighting tubes (neon, fluorescent, etc.) or rows of incandescents (like the marquees above) that follow the edges of building corners, openings, etc. (these are the 'certain features'), and not merely standard lighting that happens to illuminate these 'features'.



I say no, if you're referring to ground- or building-mounted lighting fixtures that are aimed at flags, such as this:
Polaris12.jpg




Ooh, ooh! Pick me, pick me!

I'd say 'certain features' again refers to building edges, window openings, roof lines, ledges, and the like. To me, the difference is whether the illuminated 'sign' or 'feature' in question IS the light source, or is merely the light destination.

This is clearly a sign that requires a disconnect:

manitoulights22.jpg


while this one is not, and does not:

snow-sign-lights-hr.jpg


I will add that there would be no harm in having a disconnect where one is not required, of course, but this is a pair of luminaires, and not a 'lighting system' per se, like a row of sockets in a strip would be.
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What if you had 3 such lights on each side all in a row?
 
Larry, I like your definition and it makes sense, but I do not see in the NEC where it comes from. It looks to me to be one of the items I check out with the AHJ.:smile:
 
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