When the plans show....

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Gary11734 said:
In my world, anything over 480 volts is high voltage.
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Of course you can view these things any way you want, but from the NEC's perspective (this is a subforum about the NEC, after all), the terms low, medium, and high voltage have specific meanings.
 
ggunn said:
Of course you can view these things any way you want, but from the NEC's perspective (this is a subforum about the NEC, after all), the terms low, medium, and high voltage have specific meanings.
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Do you believe that the guy at Gavin industries was talking about not using high voltage applications as used in terms the NEC has defined? Let's stay in the thread, not getting literal on what voltages are defined in the NEC.

I am using common sense here based on how we got off the track because some smo on a ladder used the wrong term.

The question here is, can you use this box at 120 volts. To HIM, THAT'S high voltage. Heading to terms in what the NEC says high voltage is, is running down a rabbit hole.

Yes, the NEC has terms of the various voltages. Was the guy on the ladder thinking about the NEC terms, are his own experiences in the trade.

The question here, as far as this thread, is, what does high voltage mean to the guy that was doing the installation at Gavin Industries... I guarantee it wasn't something above 480 volts, which is where he lives as far as the trade.
 
Agreed. When the rep says 'not recommended for high voltage,' it's very clear he meant a relative term as opposed to LV data stuff. I can't believe that needed its own tangent.

Now, back to "recommended" versus what they actually are trying to sell it for, and maybe getting some clarification from the manufacturer, and other experienced viewpoints, please.

I'd especially like to hear what an inspector would say when he sees it, and what documentation he might accept.
 
MAC702 said:
Agreed. When the rep says 'not recommended for high voltage,' it's very clear he meant a relative term as opposed to LV data stuff. I can't believe that needed its own tangent.

Now, back to "recommended" versus what they actually are trying to sell it for, and maybe getting some clarification from the manufacturer, and other experienced viewpoints, please.

I'd especially like to hear what an inspector would say when he sees it, and what documentation he might accept.
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Bravo, MAC702. You and I are on the same page here. Is there an inspector here that will tell us if they would approve the installation that started this thread?

I'm going to Email the manufacturer. I'll post when I get an answer.
 
Email to Garvin Industries;

Gentlemen,


I want to use this box, Item# 54171-TBAR.


It will be used to install for 120-volt lighting.


Is this box listed to be used for lighting, or voltages above Fire Alarm and Cameras? Your installer says, "not recommended for high voltage". Can you clarify?


Also, Article 314 comes to mind. How can we show that this installation will be approved by inspection since I can't find a way to do a box fill.


Thank You,


Gary Wayland
President
Capri Electrical Industries, Inc.
904-xxx-xxxx
 
I don't do LV. Is box fill an issue for that, too? Is listing? Would an inspector pass it for even that use if he wouldn't for lighting?

Gary11734 said:
...Is there an inspector here that will tell us if they would approve the installation that started this thread?
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However, that particular box was homemade, so there's another issue.
 
MAC702 said:
I don't do LV. Is box fill an issue for that, too? Is listing? Would an inspector pass it for even that use if he wouldn't for lighting?



However, that particular box was homemade, so there's another issue.
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Well, you hit the 64,000 dollar question.

This was a DIY (HOMEMADE) installation. PERIOD! Of course, an inspector would fail it. I just want to hear if one here could justify passing it and how he came to that conclusion. That would be more information than the DIY problem itself. Hacksawing a box and making stuff work in the field is a sure bet you will be pulling it down. We could pull that back in the seventies, not in this day and age. At one time, there were guys making up 120 volt fire alarm panels in their garage and I worked on some that were in a prison. Those days are over. Today, you can fail an inspection because you didn't use the wire nut that was in your specifications. I like wire nuts by the ideal company. No, It says Scotch Locks by 3M! FAIL!

If this was the first post from a new member, it would have been locked and told to go away as DIY non-electrician. Let's be honest here... If a moderator thinks I'm wrong, I would like to hear it here or in private, just so I know what the rules are.

What I hate most about this? I think what he did was a fantastic idea! Here is an electrician that knows how to get the job done and can think outside the box. The drawing said to put it in the middle of the room, and he accomplished his mission. KUDOS to him. Give that guy a raise! I wish I had 100 more guys like that. Believe me, I think just like that! But, in this case, I see this with a safety concern. The hacksawing is not my issue. The wire fill is not my issue. It's the lack of bonding of the tee bar that I have a problem with. And, Garvin Industries has some reservations about something too or they would not have commented on it. Guys in the field that are motivated to get the job done may not have the same perspective as I since I am the one that is responsible for their actions. Of course, that is only one opinion, mine. My job as the master of the shop is to keep the public safe, PERIOD. That is what all these rules are for besides making sure the buildings burn down at less frequency so the insurance companies don't have to pay.
 
Gary11734 said:
What I hate most about this? I think what he did was a fantastic idea! Here is an electrician that knows how to get the job done and can think outside the box. The drawing said to put it in the middle of the room, and he accomplished his mission. KUDOS to him. Give that guy a raise! I wish I had 100 more guys like that. Believe me, I think just like that! But, in this case, I see this with a safety concern. The hacksawing is not my issue. The wire fill is not my issue. It's the lack of bonding of the tee bar that I have a problem with.
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How would you feel if that section of T-bar was carefully and reliably bonded to the EGC?

-Jon
 
winnie said:
How would you feel if that section of T-bar was carefully and reliably bonded to the EGC?

-Jon
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I have never seen a T-Bar ceiling that was bonded in the way I am looking at tripping a breaker under fault. It lays in a grid system and held up by wires for the ceiling. It was never designed to do what we are asking it to do. I have never seen a T-bar that would accept a 10-32 ground screw by design.

This system as shown is closer to driving a 10' rod in the ground for service and hoping that would trip a breaker under fault.

I do not have the expertise to do what you are asking for. Plus, if I did do that, would the inspector like my DIY bonding? This is being done to clear a fault. What would the inspector deem, "reliable"?

Now, if you are asking me if the T-bar was bonded based on a UL test that it would trip a breaker under fault, then yes, I would have no issues with that.

The easiest way to fix this, (other than the wire fill issue might be a problem per code), is to make that one Tee plastic. Problem solved. If it's in the main runner, then off to the ceiling manufacturer to solve that problem. These guys will sell anything at the right price. It's a great product. It would make sense to pursue.

Of course, as soon as the code guys look at this and see its now part of this tee system, or imply that is, who knows where that will go. Thinking about this, I've already ditched the Caddy - 512 brackets that cost a bundle for this installation! Contractor is already looking on how to save a buck!
 
Gary11734 said:
I have never seen a T-Bar ceiling that was bonded in the way I am looking at tripping a breaker under fault. It lays in a grid system and held up by wires for the ceiling. It was never designed to do what we are asking it to do. I have never seen a T-bar that would accept a 10-32 ground screw by design.

This system as shown is closer to driving a 10' rod in the ground for service and hoping that would trip a breaker under fault.
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But you don't need the entire t-bar system bonded; you would need to reliably bond the metal _in_ the box.

A nut and screw with a serrated washer is probably sufficient, though it might need to be investigated/listed by UL. The ground clips that push on to the edge of a box might be sufficient, depending on coatings.

I absolutely agree that this is not obvious about how to make the install safe; I simply think that it is possible to come up with a reliable and safe way to do it.

-Jon
 
Gary11734 said:
Email to Garvin Industries;

Gentlemen,


I want to use this box, Item# 54171-TBAR.


It will be used to install for 120-volt lighting.


Is this box listed to be used for lighting, or voltages above Fire Alarm and Cameras? Your installer says, "not recommended for high voltage". Can you clarify?


Also, Article 314 comes to mind. How can we show that this installation will be approved by inspection since I can't find a way to do a box fill.


Thank You,


Gary Wayland
President
Capri Electrical Industries, Inc.
904-xxx-xxxx
Click to expand...


I got an Email back from Garvin.

Well, this is clear as mud to me...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This product is currently going through testing with UL.
It has not yet received it's certification. The Class 2 low voltage wiring recommendation will only be there until we have received a clean bill of health from UL on this product.



Sincerely,


Rachael Wojtysiak | Manager, Sales


 
Gary11734 said:
I got an Email back from Garvin.

Well, this is clear as mud to me...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This product is currently going through testing with UL.
It has not yet received it's certification. The Class 2 low voltage wiring recommendation will only be there until we have received a clean bill of health from UL on this product.



Sincerely,
Rachael Wojtysiak | Manager, Sales
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Maybe I am missing something obvious, but where in the NEC does it say a metal box has to be listed?
 
K8MHZ said:
Maybe I am missing something obvious, but where in the NEC does it say a metal box has to be listed?
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I would ASSUME they are trying to get something done with this box associated with the T-bar, and in the end, will have a UL listed number on what was accomplished and approved by a said test.


But, that is a big assumption on my part. I will now get my crystal ball out and see If I can read her mind...

Gary
 
Through the wonders of ads tracking website mentions, on another forum I saw an add for this:

https://www.garvinindustries.com/hanging-and-support/brackets/ceiling-grid/dcb

It looks as though garvin has a whole range of device boxes and accessories specifically for ceiling grids.

My guess (looking into a different murky crystal) is that others were concerned about issues of box fill and bonding, and are having UL investigate to provide reasonable approaches. Perhaps a bonding jumper will be required.

-Jon
 
winnie said:
Through the wonders of ads tracking website mentions, on another forum I saw an add for this:

https://www.garvinindustries.com/hanging-and-support/brackets/ceiling-grid/dcb

It looks as though garvin has a whole range of device boxes and accessories specifically for ceiling grids.

My guess (looking into a different murky crystal) is that others were concerned about issues of box fill and bonding, and are having UL investigate to provide reasonable approaches. Perhaps a bonding jumper will be required.

-Jon
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Now that bracket is "Cheesball". So the Ceiling Tee is holding up this POS bracket from the side when your not in a corner. What DIY electrician is going to extend a rod to the ceiling to make this secure? NONE!

The lady from Garvin was "Cryptic" in her response. She knew exactly what I was asking and no way was she going there.

Grid ceilings have always been an issue for mounting boxes. These guys are going backward thinking that one above is a solution. I could make that hack bracket since I'm your average backyard mechanic.

Two things in the trade got my attention when they first came out; oh wait, 3

1) The 512 Kaddy

2) Polaris Lugs.

3) Female Apprentices!

It's like, I could have made millions off the first two products... The last one, that's a cost!
 
What are we talking about?

What are we talking about?

Is this thread more concerned about whether the metallic lighting box is 'listed', 'suitable' or 'acceptable'?
You can't modify or manufacture a lighting box to suit your purposes like the one pictured without the inspector's or AHJ's approval anyway.
Proper bonding aside (which is of utmost importance), this application as pictured needs other considerations - i.e.: it's not enclosed anymore due to field modifications.
What am I missing here?
 
lu#26 said:
Is this thread more concerned about whether the metallic lighting box is 'listed', 'suitable' or 'acceptable'?
You can't modify or manufacture a lighting box to suit your purposes like the one pictured without the inspector's or AHJ's approval anyway.
Proper bonding aside (which is of utmost importance), this application as pictured needs other considerations - i.e.: it's not enclosed anymore due to field modifications.
What am I missing here?
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So at least one company has a metallic box that is specifically designed to fit over the t-bar, which looks very much like the field modified box. They are currently selling it for low voltage use, but the description and the e-mail with the company suggest that it is being investigated for line voltage use.

It will be interesting to see if the box does get approved for line voltage use, and what sort of bonding would be required.

-Jon
 
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