When the plans show....

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K8MHZ said:
Answer: 0

No need to look for T-Bar volume. It's a non-standard box and the volume is not marked on the box. 314.16(2)
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So, based on that, I can jam as many #12 I need in there?

I didn't find that in the multiple choice, as many as it takes.
 
Gary11734 said:
So, based on that, I can jam as many #12 I need in there?

I didn't find that in the multiple choice, as many as it takes.
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No, I said the answer was 0. If the box is considered to be non-standard with no volume calculations it can't be used.

But,

Reading a little closer, since it is marketed as a 2 1/8" x 4" box, there is a little gray area. You would be able to use the Table to figure the box volume.

And, if that were acceptable, there seems to be nothing that would require the t-bars to be calculated (other than common sense) to determine the number of conductors allowed.
 
K8MHZ said:
No, I said the answer was 0. If the box is considered to be non-standard with no volume calculations it can't be used.

But,

Reading a little closer, since it is marketed as a 2 1/8" x 4" box, there is a little gray area. You would be able to use the Table to figure the box volume.

And, if that were acceptable, there seems to be nothing that would require the t-bars to be calculated (other than common sense) to determine the number of conductors allowed.
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We are in the code. "grey area" and "common sense " should not be in this conversation.

How do I get a code compliant installation with this? How do I know I will pass inspection if I cannot go to the codebook and do the same calculation the inspector will do?

I tried the killing part about the bonding of the T-Bar, but everyone blew that off as no big deal. So, this was an end around and M8MHZ, you almost got me convinced this is a great product and I don't have to follow any rules.
 
Gary11734 said:
We are in the code. "grey area" and "common sense " should not be in this conversation.

How do I get a code compliant installation with this? How do I know I will pass inspection if I cannot go to the codebook and do the same calculation the inspector will do?

I tried the killing part about the bonding of the T-Bar, but everyone blew that off as no big deal. So, this was an end around and M8MHZ, you almost got me convinced this is a great product and I don't have to follow any rules.
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I don't like it either, but not for the same reason you don't. That's why I am trying to find other code references to dis-allow the use of the box.
 
314.23(2)(D) actually allows for enclosures to be mounted to structural or supporting elements of suspended ceilings, provided they meet the mounting requirements of the rest of the section.

I see no provisions on the box at all for mounting. Maybe that's enough to gig the box on it's own.
 
K8MHZ said:
I don't like it either, but not for the same reason you don't. That's why I am trying to find other code references to dis-allow the use of the box.
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Ok, maybe tell what it is about this box leads you not to like it. Is it the hacksawing, the T-bar jammed in this box by DIY methods with no means to trip the breaker? Or, just the fact that you cant get two wires and two wire nuts in this thing but who cares because the box is in the middle where the plans show?

There's is an old saying;

A judge says, "I cannot define pornography, but I can tell what it is if I see it"

I see this as a DIY installation. That is 40 years in this trade. I could be wrong, but something is not quite right with this and I would never let my electricians under my master license install it. I don't care what the code says at this point. I have an eye on it and think it's a safety issue. My license is to do exactly what I'm doing. In the end, in my eyes, it's a safety issue, and it's my call, not whether I can find a section that allows me to get by with this DIY installation as I see it.
 
For me, the reason is selfishness. I wouldn't want to be the one trying to install the contraption. Or, heaven forbid, ever have to come back and get to the connections for troubleshooting.

Think about how much fun pulling #12 NM into one of these would be. Then having to make the connections and then stuff them into the box with the t-bars in the way.

No thanks.
 
Gary11734 said:
Ok, maybe tell what it is about this box leads you not to like it. Is it the hacksawing, the T-bar jammed in this box by DIY methods with no means to trip the breaker? Or, just the fact that you cant get two wires and two wire nuts in this thing but who cares because the box is in the middle where the plans show?

There's is an old saying;

A judge says, "I cannot define pornography, but I can tell what it is if I see it"

I see this as a DIY installation. That is 40 years in this trade. I could be wrong, but something is not quite right with this and I would never let my electricians under my master license install it. I don't care what the code says at this point. I have an eye on it and think it's a safety issue. My license is to do exactly what I'm doing. In the end, in my eyes, it's a safety issue, and it's my call, not whether I can find a section that allows me to get by with this DIY installation as I see it.
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I have been talking about the Garvin box, which I wouldn't use if it was up to me. However, such things are not always up to me and if I want to get my way, I usually have to cite a code violation. I always counter with the fact that the code is a bare minimum, but that seldom works. Money talks...
 
K8MHZ said:
I have been talking about the Garvin box, which I wouldn't use if it was up to me. However, such things are not always up to me and if I want to get my way, I usually have to cite a code violation. I always counter with the fact that the code is a bare minimum, but that seldom works. Money talks...
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One thing is for sure; I learn something every day about humans. That includes ME!

Thanks for the banter... We can't learn unless we are thinking and making errors. And, I have thousands of errors yet to make!
 
Gary11734 said:
One thing is for sure; I learn something every day about humans.
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Yeah, humans are the worst.

extraterrestrial-alien_1f47d.png
 
K8MHZ said:
314.23(2)(D) actually allows for enclosures to be mounted to structural or supporting elements of suspended ceilings, provided they meet the mounting requirements of the rest of the section.

I see no provisions on the box at all for mounting. Maybe that's enough to gig the box on it's own.
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It has a tab for attaching drop wire similar to some recess light housings for support.
 
K8MHZ said:
300.11 (A) "Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not be permitted as the sole support"
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In conjunction to the support wire, the box also relies on the T grid as support just like any other fixture.

tit for tat
 
mopowr steve said:
In conjunction to the support wire, the box also relies on the T grid as support just like any other fixture.

tit for tat
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There is no doubt in my mind, Mopowr wants to use this in a future installation!

Hey, its great, just don't put more than 49 volts in it and you are golden...
 
Gary11734 said:
There is no doubt in my mind, Mopowr wants to use this in a future installation!

Hey, its great, just don't put more than 49 volts in it and you are golden...
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Yes, I would like the opportunity to be able to use this type of box if the condition arises. But only if it’s listed to be used in this fashion that’s described in product description. Now honestly I would probably use the box as an end of run for the connection to some fixture so not to have a bunch of wires in there. And as a caring electrician I would be diligent in how connection were made within that box so not to energize the grid. I do agree that the box should have a friction fitting clip of sorts to provide solid Bonding of the track.

I believe the video is done by a sales rep not necessarily an engineer that patented the design and submitted for NRTL listing if that has been done. But I have not yet confirmed that neither.
 
2-1/8 in deep, 4 in octagon boxes with back side tie wire tabs and (4) side T-bar slots and (2) 1/2 in Bottom knockouts are used to install ceiling lighting fixtures, fans, convenience junction boxes and devices.

contradicting statements between video and product description
 
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