Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

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ronaldrc

Senior Member
Location
Tennessee
Hello all

Hate to bother everyone with this question.
I thought I knew where to use the square of three to calculate three phase power but now I know I didn't.Or I'm not sure anymore.

I hope and don't think I am the only one on here confused about it, maybe the only one that will admit to it.

So as usual I took the time to draw 4 diagrams of three 4500 watt heaters.And I would appreciate it if you would figure the total output in watts and the current draw of each bank.All the heater elements are 230 volts 4500 watts.


:)
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Ronald,

Because the heaters will not be operating at their rated voltages for some of the configurations, I have used the nominal voltages at the transformer terminals, with no voltage drop allowance.

Heater resistance is calculated using the heater ratings. Phase current given is in each heater.

1.
Iphase = 11.78a
Iline = 11.78a
Watts each = 1631w
Watts total = 4895w

2.
Iphase = 20.416a
Iline = 35.32a (Edited typo)
Watts each = 4900w
Watts total = 14,700w

3.
Iphase = 10.208a
Iline = 10.208a
Watts each = 1225w
Watts total = 3675w

4.
Iphase = 17.694a
Iline = 30.61a
Watts each = 3680w
Watts total = 11,041w

(Edited error)
Ed

[ February 19, 2005, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Ed thanks you did more than I wanted.

I'm sure your answers are right but which ones did you use the square of three to calculate?

One two or all four?

Ronald :)
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

The only place I used 1.73 (the square root of three) for this particular calculation, was to determine the voltage at each heater element.

Once you know the individual heater voltage and resistance, the heater current can be calculated.

Then the watts per heater, and finally, multiply by three for the total watts.

You only need to use 1.73 in a power calculation if you are using the line voltage and currents.
We can discuss why that is so later if anyone wants to.

Ed
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Thanks Ed :)

I would like to discuss that later. I also added the resistance of this 4500 watt element makes it easier to calculate.
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Ed, old buddy,

You have a typo in #2. You have the line current over twice the phase current. Should be 35A rather than 45A.

Ronald,

To answer your basic question, for balanced systems:

To convert delta phase current to line current:

Iline = Iphase x 1.732, or
Iphase = Iline/1.732

To convert wye phase voltage to line voltage:

Vline = Vphase x 1.732, or
Vphase = Vline/1.732

Example:

120V x 1.732 = 208V

With these simple formulas, you can compute the voltage across the load and then compute the current and power. You can also work out the general formula for 3-phase power.
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Thanks Rattus

I learning more every day here I'm about ready to retire and didn't know how much I didn't learn or forgot.

Ronald :)
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

All three phase circuits and you used 1.73 in all four. I'll buy that but I'm still brushing up.But you would never use 1.73 in a single phase circuit right?

Thanks :)
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Ed and Rattus I do appreciate your input and feedback.


No one else seems to be interested in this and it is the most confusing part of our trade other than PF. I guess it proves Eds point of what he said about new folks entering this trade.

EDITED to remove my foot. Ed I owe you an apology it wasn't you that said Electricians are not the caliber they use to be it was here.

http://www.mikeholt.com/cgi-bin/codeforum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000018


Ronald :)

[ February 19, 2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Ronald, I agree.

Three phase power calculations, and in particular, when to use that "magic number", the square root of 3 (1.73) seemed to be the most difficult concept for my apprentice classes.
And it was for me too, back when I was trying to learn it.
Some how, each of us has to "get-a-hold" of where this constant comes from, and why it shows up in three phase power calculations.

Just in case there are folks here that are interested, I?d like to try to explain this in "electrician?s language"

The simplest formula for three phase power in a balanced load, if the phase voltage and phase current (the voltage and current values for each phase) are known, is ?
E phase x I phase x 3

Example ? Three single phase heaters, each rated 120 volt, 10 amp, 1200 watt, are wye-connected to a 208 volt three phase supply. Calculate the total power used.

The simplest way, when the watts rating of each heater is known is ? 1200 x 3 = 3600 watts.

If the watts rating of each heater is not known ?
Watts = E phase x I phase x 3
Watts = 120 x 10 x 3
Watts = 3600

However, in the real world, the phase values of voltage and current are usually not known, so standard procedure is to use the line values of voltage and current.
For instance, you can?t measure the individual phase currents in a motor without pulling apart the terminal connections. What you measure in the wires supplying a three phase load is the line voltage and current. Let?s call them E line and I line.

How do the line values of voltage and current compare with the phase values? That depends on whether the system is wye connected or delta connected.
Let?s look at that, in case it isn?t well understood.

In a wye connection -
- E line = E phase x 1.73
- I line = I phase


In a delta connection -
- E line = E phase
- I line = I phase x 1.73

So, if you?re calculating the wye connected example above using the line voltage - 208 v, you can?t multiply E x I x 3 this time, because the voltage you are now using has already been multiplied by 1.73 once. (208 = 120 x 1.73) So in the formula, you multiply it by 1.73 again, which is the equivalent of using the phase voltage and multiplying by 3.

Watts = E line x I line x 1.73
Watts = 208 x 10 x 1.73
Watts = 3600 (3598.4)

For delta connected loads, it is the line current that is equal to the phase current times 1.73, so again the power formula has to be Watts = E line x I line x 1.73

In most cases we do not even know whether the loads are wye or delta connected, but it does not matter, as 1.73 must be used in the power calculation if the line voltage and current values are used.

The sketch below can be used for practice, but it is not the same example as the one above.

Ed

3ph7.gif


[ February 19, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Originally posted by ronaldrc:


No one else seems to be interested in this and it is the most confusing part of our trade other than PF. I guess it proves Eds point of what he said about new folks entering this trade.
Not so fast! I am interested in this also... but have been out doing other things this weekend, and just viewed the thread. I am going out to eat with my wife and daughter now, so don't have time to say anything on the subject.

Will get back to you later... maybe Monday morning.
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Originally posted by Ronald:
No one else seems to be interested in this and it is the most confusing part of our trade other than PF.
Hey Ronald, I am interested but I also know (most times :D
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Ed Thanks,thats great litature on three phase.

Ed its ashame your retired theres not very many good instructors in our field and I personally feel you are of the highest caliber.

I hate to bring this up but here on this forum just a couple of days ago we had one instructor engineer ask why we don't have to take a neutral to a 3 phase motor. Is is the caliber of our new instructors I hope not.No wonder we have some trying to enter a constant on straight resistive single phase power formula.

Ronald :)

[ February 19, 2005, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

ronald,

The factor 1.732 comes from twice the cosine of 30 degrees, 0.866, which appears when adding and subtracting 3-phase vectors.

You need to understand some trig before you can understand vectors and 3-phase and PF too.
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Rattus I told you I was weak in the math dept. but I do understand trig.If you will look at my diagrams I drew a triangle. :)
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

No one else seems to be interested in this and it is the most confusing part of our trade other than PF. I guess it proves Eds point of what he said about new folks entering this trade.


Ronald :)
I love this type of discussion,I just don't have anything to contribute.I suspect I'm not the only one reading,learning and lurking,only spoke up so you know there is another interested party.Good question Ronald,great demonstration and lesson Ed.Many thanks,thanks to you as well Rattus. :)

-Shawn

[ February 19, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: shawn474 ]
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

The factor 1.732 comes from twice the cosine of 30 degrees, 0.866,
Rattus, I'm sure you are correct.

I also know from 30 years of teaching apprentice electricians, that if I used that (Trig) approach with people who have very limited math skills, I would have little or no success.

I have had to develop many "non-math" explanations, which, while not technically correct, got the job done to the extent that we needed.

This (below)they understood. ;)

Ed


3ph-conn2.gif


[ February 19, 2005, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]
 
Re: Where do we use the 1.73 when calculating 3 phase

Thanks to all that are interested and lurking around in the back ground I jumped the gun when I said that not many are interested.I should be like most of you and listen more.

Have a great night:Ronald :)
 
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