Where do you draw the line on pulling a permit?

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crispysonofa

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New England
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Electrical and Security Contractor
Just curious what everyone's take is on this? Where do you draw the line on pulling a permit? Changing light fixtures? Retrofitting? Hooking up a new piece of equipment? Only when you run new circuits?
 
Regardless of un/incorporated jurisdictions, or common laws allowing some owner improvements to principle place of residence, without building permits, the line is often drawn for us.

NFPA-70 enforcement under 90.4 "for use by insurance inspectors", and Art. 100 definition of "Authority Having Jurisdiction", Informational Note: clarifies, "For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the authority having jurisdiction."

While jurisdictions may adopt some permit exemptions, under my State's Elec. Code, CEC §89.108.4, it won't prevent fire code violations from voiding the property insurance. So, property insurance draws a line for us.

Perhaps less likely with unincorporated areas, losing bidders or neighbors can report un-permitted construction or unlicensed contractors, and municipal-code enforcement can revoke occupancy. So, any bystander can drawn the line for us.

With Supreme courts punishing cities that issue permits during licensing violations, Lowe v. Lowndes County Building Inspection Department, 760 So. 2d 711 (Miss. 2000), the only unlicensed contractor that municipal inspectors tolerate in my State are owner-builders, subject to indemnified permits, using their family, or employee payrolls, per CA B&P §7044.

Municipal indemnity is required before owner-builder permits are issued, since fire-code violations will often void the property insurance. http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Consumers/Know_Risks_Of_Owner_-_Builder/
 
In NJ homeowners can do their own electrical work on the property in which they live. An income property needs an EC to do the work. That said, there is a laundry list of stuff you don't need a permit for. Most minor repairs or "ordinary maintenance" is exempted. I can change outlets, switches, and fixtures without a permit as long as I'm not pulling new wire.

From NJ:

3. Ordinary electrical maintenance shall include:
i. The replacement of any receptacle, switch, or lighting fixture rated at 20 amps or less and
operating at less than 150 volts to ground with a like or similar item, including receptacles in
locations where ground-fault circuit interrupter protection, damp/wet or tamper-resistant are
required (Sections 210.8, 406.8 and 406.11, respectively, of the electrical subcode);

ii. Repairs to any installed electrically operated equipment such as doorbells, communication
systems, and any motor operated device. Provided, however, that if fire protection systems are
interrupted for repairs the fire official shall be notified in accordance with the building subcode;

iii. Installation of communications wiring for communications wiring in a Class 3 structure, provided
that the rearrangement does not involve penetration of a fire-rated assembly and is not in a
hazardous location as defined in Chapter 5 of the electrical subcode;
(1) For the purposes of applying these provisions, communications wiring shall mean any wiring
covered by Chapter 8 of the electrical subcode, such as telephone, radio antenna, or coaxial
cable TV wiring. Communications wiring shall also include data circuits between
computers/information technology equipment, which may be classified as "communications
circuits," in accordance with Article 725 of the electrical subcode; and​

iv. Replacement of domestic dishwashers; and

v. Replacement of kitchen range hoods in single family dwellings.
 
crispysonofa said:
Just curious what everyone's take is on this? Where do you draw the line on pulling a permit? Changing light fixtures? Retrofitting? Hooking up a new piece of equipment? Only when you run new circuits?
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Rules vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction - here some of the things you mentioned may not always require you to file a permit in the first place.
 
I've learned that a homeowner who renovates and sells his property can be asked for documentation on renovations, receipts, inspections, making it harder to justify for that higher sale price.
 
Here is what the 2018 IBC exempts from a permit regarding electrical:
Electrical:
1. Repairs and maintenance: Minor repair work,
including the replacement of lamps or the connection
of approved portable electrical equipment to
approved permanently installed receptacles.
2. Radio and television transmitting stations: The
provisions of this code shall not apply to electrical
equipment used for radio and television transmissions,
but do apply to equipment and wiring for a
power supply and the installations of towers and
antennas.
3. Temporary testing systems: A permit shall not be
required for the installation of any temporary system
required for the testing or servicing of electrical
equipment or apparatus.
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Here is what the 2018 IRC exempts:
Electrical:
1. Listed cord-and-plug connected temporary decorative
lighting.
2. Reinstallation of attachment plug receptacles but not
the outlets therefor.
3. Replacement of branch circuit overcurrent devices
of the required capacity in the same location.
4. Electrical wiring, devices, appliances, apparatus or
equipment operating at less than 25 volts and not
capable of supplying more than 50 watts of energy.
5. Minor repair work, including the replacement of
lamps or the connection of approved portable electrical
equipment to approved permanently installed
receptacles.
Click to expand...

Many jurisdictions amend the IBC and IRC so this is just the ICC Published requirements, Check with the local Jurisdictions to see if there are any amendments

Chris
 
500$ is the line here

500$ is the line here

North Dakota says less than $500 doesn't require a permit.
Labor and materials all count towards the 500$.
 
I think the OP is asking about not pulling a permit when one is required.....I suspect many won't want to comment or be truthful. I, of course, always pull a permit if it is required by law.

Now onto another topic, that beachfront property I'm looking to get rid of for cheap.....
 
In CA we are governed by the California Electric code and other California codes based on national codes.
That said , Any new electrical wiring requires a permit.
I don't think that any city or county exempts a homeowner it is just that the authorities just do not know. Take Los Angeles. how with all the people that live here how can anyone find out unless someone tattles.
 
Sierrasparky said:
In CA we are governed by the California Electric code and other California codes based on national codes.
That said , Any new electrical wiring requires a permit.
I don't think that any city or county exempts a homeowner it is just that the authorities just do not know. Take Los Angeles. how with all the people that live here how can anyone find out unless someone tattles.
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Take the area around ‘Winged horses’, with all the people that don’t live here, same thing.
 
Sierrasparky said:
In CA we are governed by the California Electric code and other California codes based on national codes.
That said , Any new electrical wiring requires a permit.
I don't think that any city or county exempts a homeowner it is just that the authorities just do not know. Take Los Angeles. how with all the people that live here how can anyone find out unless someone tattles.
Click to expand...

ptonsparky said:
Take the area around ‘Winged horses’, with all the people that don’t live here, same thing.
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Yet there is only one inspector for a certain region and if he sees work going on that looks like it probably requires a permit and he doesn't find there is one - he is going to check it out.
 
sw_ross said:
North Dakota says less than $500 doesn't require a permit.
Labor and materials all count towards the 500$.
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Is there a lot of $499 projects being done there?

I never understood permits or permit fees based on cost of project.

One can easily have a $500+ item involved that because it is listed that item itself doesn't require any inspection, and you may only have $100 worth of materials and labor involved in hooking it up.

You also can have a multi-million dollar project but maybe only a single load application - inspection may only take 10 minutes, yet a $25,000 house renovation may take half the day to inspect.
 
kwired said:
Is there a lot of $499 projects being done there?

I never understood permits or permit fees based on cost of project.

One can easily have a $500+ item involved that because it is listed that item itself doesn't require any inspection, and you may only have $100 worth of materials and labor involved in hooking it up.

You also can have a multi-million dollar project but maybe only a single load application - inspection may only take 10 minutes, yet a $25,000 house renovation may take half the day to inspect.
Click to expand...

YMMV, but NJ has a base fee, and then uses project volume and/or device/fixture counts. Most home renovations fall under the minimum fees. IIRC, the base fee for electric includes about 20 devices, depending on jurisdiction.
 
electrofelon said:
I think the OP is asking about not pulling a permit when one is required.....I suspect many won't want to comment or be truthful. I, of course, always pull a permit if it is required by law.

Now onto another topic, that beachfront property I'm looking to get rid of for cheap.....
Click to expand...

You are right, in this area most small jobs are done without a permit.

Technically many of these jobs would require a permit but if there is no dumpster ouside to announce work going on inside then who's to know.

We each have to make a decision when we think it's safe to work without a permit. I have had an electrical inspector tell me that when he was doing electrical contracting he never permitted a basement finish. To me that's new construction and does require a permit. But I'm not going to permit a job just to run a few feet of cable and add a receptacle ( I wouldn't get the job if I did, it's just not common practice).
 
I am just trying to figure out when a permit is necessary? Do I contact my local inspector to find out? I am trying to establish a best practice. I am curious about whether retrofitting existing T8 Fixtures with LED bulbs, bypassing the ballast and using direct wire would require a permit? What about changing existing high bay lights and installing a new fixture? I am not altering the wiring of the building, I am just trying to figure out if changing fixtures and such requires a permit? I will ask my local inspector but wanted to see what peoples opinions or if there are situations where its in black and white. I like getting an inspection because I feel that after inspected it takes the liability away from my company and it is then the responsibility of the inspector. I am not trying to seek situations or advice on not pulling a permit where one is needed. I want to hear peoples thoughts.
 
crispysonofa said:
Just curious what everyone's take is on this? Where do you draw the line on pulling a permit? Changing light fixtures? Retrofitting? Hooking up a new piece of equipment? Only when you run new circuits?
Click to expand...


I refuse to answer this question on grounds it could incriminate me.
 
crispysonofa said:
I am just trying to figure out when a permit is necessary? Do I contact my local inspector to find out? I am trying to establish a best practice. I am curious about whether retrofitting existing T8 Fixtures with LED bulbs, bypassing the ballast and using direct wire would require a permit? What about changing existing high bay lights and installing a new fixture? I am not altering the wiring of the building, I am just trying to figure out if changing fixtures and such requires a permit? I will ask my local inspector but wanted to see what peoples opinions or if there are situations where its in black and white. I like getting an inspection because I feel that after inspected it takes the liability away from my company and it is then the responsibility of the inspector. I am not trying to seek situations or advice on not pulling a permit where one is needed. I want to hear peoples thoughts.
Click to expand...

Just because an inspector passed you doesn't let you off the hook should something be found that was not to code or dangerous. He may share in the "liability" but it was YOU who did the install and should know the proper way and double check the work you did.
 
Little Bill said:
Just because an inspector passed you doesn't let you off the hook should something be found that was not to code or dangerous. He may share in the "liability" but it was YOU who did the install and should know the proper way and double check the work you did.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I can't tell you how many times I have heard electricians that believe that once the inspector passes an installation that they no longer hold any liability for any code violations in their work, which is incorrect.

Most inspectors fall under governmental immunity when it comes to violations that are missed on an inspection, unless it can be proven that the inspector has shown gross negligence in their duties.

If inspectors took on all liability for the work that they inspected I doubt may people would be willing to be an inspector, I know I wouldn't.

Chris
 
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